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What is BlackHat & Moral Guidelines!

Discussion in 'BlackHat Lounge' started by eestisiin, Mar 10, 2009.

  1. eestisiin

    eestisiin Regular Member

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    Hy,

    the reason why I am writing this thread is that I have felt that something is going on in the world of IM, which does not suite - yeah, I know that now im going to get bombarded with posts stating that "Oh well, get the f*ck away from it", but the problem is that people are forgetting what is Black Hat and how we should think about karma, especially newbies.

    I noticed this about 3 months ago, when I saw threads appearing every day with following titles:

    • How to get Your competitor banned from SERP
    • How to get Your competitor banned from AdSense/AdWords/Youtube ETC

    This is exactly what makes me mad - for me Black Hat is always been a way to show others that you are clever not that you can ban/kill the competition! Exactly Black Hat equals clever to me! This shows that you can choose the shorter road and balance yourself on the line of TOS to achieve something. It means, you are a person who has enough brain power and lucrative ideas to succeed.

    For example - you can spend 5 hours a day, talking nasty and busting your ass to get some sign ups with eWhoring, but a true Black Hat user, would think a new twist to it, maybe outsource it or what ever, but he would end up spending maybe only 15 minutes to earn the same amount of money and never has to actually talk to those guys...

    Unfortunately now things have gone out of hands, and people ESPECIALLY NEWBIES, who chase each and every coin. They will go through hell and high water, to just collect this $0.1 AdSense earning, but unfortunately this means that they will do ANYTHING to trash someones other living. No i am not talking about winning SERP over his page or bidding over him on AdWords or etc, this is always a good sports and is OK, but those new things that I have been hearing...

    The sad part is that, those youngsters jump head first into this, get their competitors adsense or etc blocked and then see that they only make 0.1$ more than before, because their ad is still below the fold or somewhere else.

    This said - I believe that for each action there is a reaction and that karma does exist. Maybe this guy earned so-so from this - maybe $500/month, which helped him to pay his car loan, but now you screwed him.. Imagin this being you? How does it feel then huh?

    So please keep your karma clean and PLEASE, be a good sport BHW!!

    I hope that I wont get hammered for this thread and I hope it is not too long or too hard to follow, but I just needed to get this out in the open to see, if I really think too old school...

    But i do believe that all newbies and persons who are taking their venture here, should read it!
     
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  2. silver

    silver Jr. VIP Jr. VIP

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    Trying to get your competitors banned/blacklisted sure is nasty if they didn't do anything to harm you,
    But I have not seriously done adsense/SEO/youtube or any of the jackshit you mentioned, I don't know shit,
    but IMO any self-respecting & decent blackhatter/person tries to not harm others and to be helpful (well, at least where it's possible).
     
  3. vegasvillan

    vegasvillan Regular Member

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    I feel exactly where you are coming from...But on the other hand this is War! And in war there are no rules, there are no borders and there are no guidelines....

    Who is to say what is moral in terms of Internet Marketing, There are no laws to this and there is no Constitution. How can you say whats wrong and whats right...this is all whole internet thing is just 1100101011001111 if you think about it.


    Everyone out there is fair game and if you are in a black hatters way he will run you over.

    We are feared by all but give little respect to others. We are black hatters and if you do not have the stomach for this....well you might want to get a day job.

    I am not trying to be little you in anyway....I am just stating my opinion on the topic

    Nice thread btw
     
  4. silver

    silver Jr. VIP Jr. VIP

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    There are laws dude, inside your head, you have to do what you feel like. Everyone has their owns set of thinking of what is 'wrong' and what's 'right', and the internet isn't binary numbers or something meaningless, we are dealing with real persons who exist and live somewhere in this planet :) (well most people are dumb and uneducated, waiting to be ripped of by us, and that's the idea behind blackhat & that's what makes it "ethical and moral").

    Just some random thoughts, really random :rolleyes:
     
  5. eestisiin

    eestisiin Regular Member

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    Well yes, I must agree, that this is war and all, but what is sad, is that how easily people tend to go demolish others fortune.

    I wrote an example on the OP - You are a husband, you see that you are able to rake in $500 a month and decide to buy a car for your wife who will drive kids to the school. Now some 15 year old pube reads an ebook that there is money to be made, and not thinking any longer, he goes and gets this guy banned. I mean there are so many other ways to do it - why not try to outrank it, or try another keyword, take it as a learning curve or etc. But no, he gets the guy banned, he doesnt earn a dime from it and both loose.

    Im not talking about some shady moves like dont know what exactly even, but anything that is directly headed to banning someone from a network or etc is just wrong and Black Hat players should set their lines.

    I actually believe that 95% blackhat users respect it and think that hell, why should I ban this guy, when I can outrank him, but those youngster, who think that this is their chance, but just leave the niche after 15 minutes with no money earned, make me mad and sad :D

    Like I Said - Black Hat is more about clever ways to make money not about Nukeing your opponent. In the real world, it would be like, should I talk my way out of this situation and walk away clean or maybe I can try Silvester Stalone style and kill all the guys on this island so there are no witnesses :D bad example maybe but you may get the point...

    Intelligence vs Brute Force
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2009
  6. Poison

    Poison Junior Member

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    I have a day job as an SEO and PPC manager at some e-commerce web site and I spend my day making up ways to get ahead, even submitting the other companies into link farms and bad site rings.

    My boss has never once asked the moral question of is it fair. It is we make £2000 today or they do, directly competing.

    Once my boss asked me do you think they are doing the same back to us? I turned around and said
    "You know for a fact *Their URL* is owned by an ex-SEO hotshot and I can prove he is using black hat techniques to get ahead of us. Why shouldn't we fight dirty if he already started by throwing mud?"

    In the end of the day I get paid no matter what, but I will get a massive bonus when sales fly. It's like Costa and Starbucks sitting next to each other and not competing, just telling some people to go off and visit next door.

    I agree there should be some standing of morals, but in the end of the day if you are running a massive web site with people trying to take you down left and right, what are you going to do? Send them an e-mail asking them to stop and play fair?

    Some people will do anything to get to the top, one day I hope you are successful to a point that people will try and ruin your site. Then you will be forced to play dirty just to keep floating.

    Karma is stealing sweets from babies, Blackhat is a form of marketing and capitalism. =D

    Hmm guess I better stop writing now. Great post btw:D
     
  7. vegasvillan

    vegasvillan Regular Member

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    I feel you on the ban...and there is a gray area it depends on how bad you want it..and thats not just in internet marketing, thats business and thats life....

    Lets think outside the internet for a bit ok? I own a coffee shop and its a small business and starbucks moves next door, are people going to say thats so mean of starbucks?

    Or what if I own a diner and a bigger and better diner opens up....Don't you think I will do everything in my power to keep my business and do everything in my power to see there business go under.

    Its bigger than you think..for most of us this is our way of life and do you think for one second we are going to let some idiot mess that up? We have to look out for our best interest. Who knows if we go take that guy down on the SERP he might learn a thing or to and in return he will get better at what he does......just another one of life challenges nothing in this world is fair...

    If you see something you want you have to take it
     
  8. eestisiin

    eestisiin Regular Member

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    Just to clear things, Im not against a fight and a war, thats the part in any kind of ranking, but im more talking about killing his monetization.

    Im all hands on when it comes to competing and trying to outrank your top spot, but this banning stuff which has come to be really popular nowadays is just WRONG...


    You are true on the real life basis, but you leave out one aspect - you would not go and put a bomb under Starbucks or smth ;)

    But im not trying to offend you and we each have personal moral lines so its better not to start fighting with each other :) You know what they say - Arguing online is like Para Olympic - you can win, but you are still an invalid - This goes for me too :D
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2009
  9. vegasvillan

    vegasvillan Regular Member

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    Yes your right but there is actually a funny story to this...I did some backlink research on my top competitor and I was able to find obvious spam that google has not picked up on...After seeing this I know he is a black hatter...and like I said this is war....but sometimes in war it can be better to have a few allies than more enemies...I think im just going to try and out rank this guy....we will see whats happens

    lol
     
  10. tymillz

    tymillz Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I try to treat my marketing with same way of thinking I am attempting to live by in the real world. Its eay to do online, but kind of a challenge in the world.

    That way of thinking is to keep an abundance mindset and not a competitive one. I think if you just create, and do it with good intentions you will reap what you sow. I hope I am explaining it clearly.

    Basically what I am trying to say is, there is no competition. There may be people that are doing the same thing that you are doing, and doing it using the same techniques. But do not fixate your mind on that. Just continue to add value in some type of way and you will succeed.
     
  11. Poison

    Poison Junior Member

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    I would never aim to ban someone from the rankings, then again it is in my best interest to bet them in the rankings.

    If all the other companies suddenly disappeared leaving us with their traffic, well, I would be out of a job. :D

    But I do very much agree getting someone banned from the rankings is too far. Sadly I was subject to it. :(
     
  12. mazzim

    mazzim Junior Member

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    but C.P.A or "blackhat C.P.A" is actually about taking money in an unethical way from a large corporation while the corporation remains with scores of unprofitable/grey leads. frankly ... most of the activities carried out in the blackhat underworld are truly hard to justify :eek: it could be argued technically that to "ban your competitor" is to actually increase your profits because you will remain the only player after all.. THAT'S NOT me who originally said that, hey :)
     
  13. eestisiin

    eestisiin Regular Member

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    Yeah, there really is a lot of things that make this blackhat world hard to understand what is unethical or not.

    And I also believe that there is no excuse from stealing and stating that they are huge and have lots of money, why cant we steal :) I myself believe that there is a line where you have to balance yourself.
     
  14. Whisker

    Whisker Moderator Staff Member Moderator Premium Member

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    Kinda preachy and up your own ass but in the same sense good advice.

    Some people get fucked over their whole life while only doing good deeds. Some people are OJ Simpsons. We are designed to compete, and dominate so even in internet marketing it's natural, but maybe you'll die in one of the following ways because you tried to ban one of my accounts:


    1. Getting crushed by poorly-mounted plasma TV over your bed

    2. Drowning during your Born-Again baptism

    3. Like Goose in "Top Gun"

    4. Fat

    And last but not least-

    5. Laughing yourself to death while watching "Mind of Mencia"
     
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  15. eestisiin

    eestisiin Regular Member

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    I thought it will go this way - Im not whining and no-one (thank to dont know what) has ever banned me from somewhere or etc, but I was just wondering the boundaries and what has happened to this mind over matters thing BH is?

    After all it is about finding the shortest way around, not crushing everyone on the run :)

    But seriously, im not whining and somehow I have managed to get away with all things, but wouldn it make you wanna strangle some pube when he would get you banned from your money making method and then you are out of business and this youngster never even tries it, or tries and fails epically?

    The point is that, think before you act? Isnt it?
     
  16. obtuse

    obtuse Newbie

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    TBH - I'd rather bust my butt and get hosed by someone who was better then me at this, even if they did it in a "not so nice way" rather than get "dropped" by adsense, google, whoever for "no apparent reason". I've seen a number of ppl who have gotten dropped and have to start all over again because the big guys just "???????????" No one seems to know why they drop you.

    At least if you're bumped by another person out there fighting the daily battle you're on the same playing ground. Of course, I'm just beginning and just made my first $0.11 yesterday so I'm in no way a threat to anyone and may never be.......... lol.......
     
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