1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

The reality of hiring SEO guy?

Discussion in 'Black Hat SEO' started by alwayslistening, Jul 13, 2013.

  1. alwayslistening

    alwayslistening Newbie

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2013
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hey everyone, great site here.

    Aright so basically over time i eventually built a site that is just really robust, has many different ways to monetize and is converting high. I currently only use PPC.

    The next step to maximize revenue is just more traffic and cheaper if possible.... the site itself is close to maxed out as far as revenue streams and functionality.

    Here is what i have learned. Dont try to do things yourself. I built a very complex site and i have 0 php knowledge. I went to a local school and hiring a bright kid cheap and he did what most will never be able to build....

    This really opened my eyes to life and business, i feel as if i cheated the system, i didnt havent to hire some guy at 100k per year to develop this or get screwed by some company to charge me 50k to build it,.... a few months and cheap labor with a bright guy worked wonders.


    Is this possible to do with SEO? Is he out there just like that developer was? Or is he making money regardless? I know good developers can be broke, but i would assume good marketers or people who are good at SEO dont need a job?

    There are so many joke SEO con artist out there....... i dont need a company to outsource my seo to an outsourcer who isnt even good.

    How do i get to the source... is it possible to get 1 guy coming in a few days per week and working for me? Should i just hire a company.. does that ever work?

    Any opinions or advice i would love to hear from you guys i really appreciate it, thank you!
     
  2. dragonrage01

    dragonrage01 Power Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2011
    Messages:
    674
    Likes Received:
    155
    The kid was in school so he wasn't making money.
    Any good SEO guy that can give you targeted traffic or climb your pages high in the SERPS is definitely making lots of money that he will not even bother getting clients.
    I only make $400 a day and I don't even think I want any clients. I may as well use my time creating and publishing my own sites.

    So in short, there are no gems. The guy that is not good in SEO will have a link selling page in Fiverr or BST section promising high rankings that he cannot do for his own sites.

    Edit:

    Anyway, a great SEO using blackhat to grayhat techniques which usually means spam has done a lot of experimentation. Only way to learn how to make money in this game is by experience. A guy that is learning will most likely hurt your site that help it.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 3
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2013
  3. lancis

    lancis Elite Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2010
    Messages:
    1,632
    Likes Received:
    2,384
    Occupation:
    Entrepreneur
    Location:
    Milky Way
    Home Page:
    Coding is perceived as complicated by many, while SEO is usually perceived as simple. Therefore SEO is a beloved field of house-wives. For cheap price you can find a house-wife who will promise wonders, because after reading some book she feels confident enough to approach the real world. The problem is - the real world is full of surprises, so if you're competing in a tough niche dont expect wonders for your money.

    Those truly good with SEO generally, either 1) work for themselves, 2) are not cheap.
    Cheating the system is a gamble with SEO, you either: win, see no difference, or get deindexed.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 4
  4. Danny1111

    Danny1111 Elite Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,096
    Likes Received:
    2,480
    I think the thing is :

    * everyone has Bills to Pay and has To Eat
    * hiring a college kid who knows Seo is entirely possible
    * many people can't get results
    * you get what you pay for

    So if your website is important to you and you need results - then you want to go for a company that can do the job ---> if your website is not important to you - then you can try 20 college kids -- 19 of which may destroy your rankings -- looking for the 1 guy who can do the job well at an inexpensive price.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  5. steelballs

    steelballs BANNED BANNED

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2008
    Messages:
    1,832
    Likes Received:
    4,562
    Well said SEO has been elevated to a mysterious 'Black Art' it is amazing how many SEO experts profess to know all, as long as you pay them hundreds if not thousands to find out...

    The reality is that SEO based on proven methods which work, take time and show ongoing results...

    I much prefer the long timeline SEO that succeeds as opposed to the Super Fast SEO that will be all yours to buy for 100's of USD, in other words have the privilege of paying to get instantly ranked before getting de-indexed later down the road.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  6. alwayslistening

    alwayslistening Newbie

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2013
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hey i appreciate everyone's responses.

    I would argue this, an naturally because this is what you do every day, your perception on SEO may be skewed. I can guarantee you any amount of money if i went on stack overflow 6 months ago and asked a question like hey can i find a good developer cheap out of a tech school? They would laugh at me.... oh wait.... they did. "no good developer is going to work for you, period. They have so many options".... Yet that is exactly what i did.....i know i have accomplished unbelievable things at such a low price anyone would be impressed.

    I tend to agree it would be harder to find a good seo guy/kid. Not everyone is like you, some people just want to get a paycheck and go home, maybe its become easy for you but some people dont want to test offers, open companies, deal with payments, etc.... its just the way some people are, i dont understand it but im happy it exists otherwise we would all be in trouble.


    Im trying to look at this as subjectively as possible, i cant start learning seo just like i couldent start learning code. I had idea for site, i got it done fast and cheap and correctly with no skill.

    I did PPC, fast and correctly with an expert cheap (went on adwords forum by google and hired one out of the top 10 contributors to help)... took the cheapest rate.

    Now this is the last stage...SEO. I agree this will be the hardest. So if i cant find a person to work daily.... am i supposed to hire a company? Does that ever work/ is it ever cost efficient? Paying $4k a month to net 4k a month isnt helping obviously.

    Also just as a note, i went into my friends office the other day (a landscaper) who is starting an online business, literally doesnt know what "domain name" means. He has a kid that works for a social media company mon-fri.... this kid comes in every saturday for 2 months at $120.....

    He showed me on site analytics.... he pressed a button on facebook and this landscapers new online business website that has been up for 2 months had over 800 people on site at once...he did it with an older site and had like 7,000 people on site at once.. he built up a fan page with like 100k likes for the landscaper... Im pretty sure this kid had access to a ton of facebook pages and just hit them with his page to get it started so he leveraged that. Again im sure if i said was that possible everyone would say no.... then showed me they have been spending like $10 a day advertising on facebook to get people to like their pages, etc.

    That showed me once again, its all about finding the right people, not learning how to do it yourself. If your business is highly profitable you shouldent have to execute the tasks, if you open a construction company and bang a hammer, your doing something wrong... i just dont want to start playing that game... im all for working hard but the entire purpose of this business was to leverage time not work 10 hours aday doing SEO and i figured you guys would know the truth.... if its not possible to get it done cheap, then its not possible, i understand that. There is no better place to find out in the world then right here, that im sure of.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 2
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2013
  7. lancis

    lancis Elite Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2010
    Messages:
    1,632
    Likes Received:
    2,384
    Occupation:
    Entrepreneur
    Location:
    Milky Way
    Home Page:
    @alwayslistening
    I understand how it feels when you believe that you can find the best guy for the job for the lowest price - its almost orgasmic. :) However, from my experience the implication are usually felt much latter, when you start to understand the entire picture. Then you'll suddenly find out that the little things the kid overlooked (or did wrong) costed you a fortune down the road.

    Just as an experiment, PM me your site and I will try to find 3 things he did incorrectly.
     
  8. alwayslistening

    alwayslistening Newbie

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2013
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    2
    lancis....You will find more than 3.... but who cares? Im making money, its irrelevant. Again, this is prime example of someone that knows TOO MUCH about what they're doing, this in actuality is extremely limiting. It truly does not matter.... If it works, and takes payment.... that's the goal. I have friends with some of the most elegantly coded sites youve ever seen, only problem is they make $0 dollars.. trust me its not important, and i have a very dynamic site and any inefficiencies in code really put load on the server.... but again, apparently it doesnt matter, ive had no issues. If i did... id go back where i got the first guy, hire 5 of them next time so they can argue about best way to plan/execute, and have them work side by side and im sure i would get better results that way.

    open business>create product>drive traffic>take money>lower CPA>increase revenue streams>charge more>repeat....

    i literally see nothing more, nothing less than those steps, i used to be a perfectionist, thats when i made no money. The second i stopped caring was the second life became easy. Just as an example with the guy doing facebook... clearly its working, and thats cheap enough IMO for the results i saw. If that kid can do that facebook advertising so well, why doesnt he do it for himself?

    How are my competitors doing it? Are they hiring companies and breaking even with it? I mean i doubt the founders of million dollar online businesses are the guys doing the SEO,... there has to be a way.

    I met this guy in NYC that brought me to his office.... he had 6 guys lined up like a sweat shop on some terrible desks doing SEO all day for a college lead generation site... the guy is driving a ferrari around and thats his only income... come on i mean think on the bigger scheme of things... anything is possible here, i mean maybe you just need to be profitable enough to pay people 60k-80k salaries to do the SEO then... im not sure.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2013
  9. lancis

    lancis Elite Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2010
    Messages:
    1,632
    Likes Received:
    2,384
    Occupation:
    Entrepreneur
    Location:
    Milky Way
    Home Page:
    Depends on the niche, if they dont plan to go big and stay local, then SEO agencies are the usual route. Future brands on the contrary pay a lot of money for branding - its part of the reasons that start-ups choose to seek for investors. Promotion is very costly when you try to expand your market globally. Just an example, you're in UK and want to sell in France as well? - You need a French marketing people, who can create viral content. SEO plays a minor part when it comes to brands, because its a natural consequence of proper branding.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  10. alwayslistening

    alwayslistening Newbie

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2013
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    2
    Yes branding is not a goal at all... all i care about is the ROI, this isnt that type of business. Very profitable but not a high retention rate... isnt that always how it works haha? More than losing money i hate wasting time and i just feel i can easily enter than arena with SEO. Im honestly thinking of running television commercials because at least i can get to work right away and have some sort of control... i just doubt it will be nearly as profitable as SEO. One keyword alone not a major one im pretty sure would net me $100-$150 everyday based off the ppc results... i would assume from research it possible within 4 months to get there so $125 average x $30 you figure thats a $3,750 net profit word.... but im not even sure if that is worth paying someone for... unless they can rank for multiple keywords at a time, id probably break even...
     
  11. lagger

    lagger Power Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2011
    Messages:
    510
    Likes Received:
    181
    This is truly the most inspiring thing ive heard in a long time.
     
  12. lagger

    lagger Power Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2011
    Messages:
    510
    Likes Received:
    181
    I think your on the correct path here. First figuring out how much each keyword is valued then you can estimate how much you want to pay/invest per keyword.

    I personally would advice doing a couple of days research on this forum learning the concept of SEO a little better. Yes, you had luck finding a kid build you a nice site for cheap, but you dont want to throw all that work down the drain. SEO is one of thous fields that has lots of scammers or people who think they are something they are not. So with a little education you should be able to find a seller/ agency who is gonna do the job right, for the right price and not screw you over.

    Lets say your gonna hire a contractor to roof your house. You dont just drive down to local hardware store and pick up some parking lot workers and expect them to do the job right. You do a little research on the net about what you expect out of a contractor. Maybe you call a couple get some price quotes, ask them some basic questions about being bonded, insured, previous work experience, esc..

    So due a little DD then start emailing contractors and have them give you some estimates.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2013
  13. Danny1111

    Danny1111 Elite Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,096
    Likes Received:
    2,480
    I just wanted to say - that Social Traffic to a Landscaping business might look good that alot of people hit the website - but most people are not going to convert into Sales .. Things go Viral for a reason - that its quirky, interesting or the deal of the century - so I have a hard time believing a Landscaper in Frankville - Kentucky is going to convert much Facebook traffic.

    Totally understand overall your simply looking at Input Cost VS Profit --but certainly its never that simple when your relying on other people to do all the work for you .. I'm sure you get what I'm saying.
     
  14. Techxan

    Techxan Elite Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,093
    Likes Received:
    3,585
    Occupation:
    Local SEOist
    Location:
    TEXAS (you have to yell, its the law.)
    OP,

    Just my 2 cents worth here.

    You lucked out with the kid programmer, good job finding him, and PM me his contact info, I have work for him.

    This i why you are not likely to find a SEO girl the same way. You cannot learn SEO by reading about it. You have to implement it and see what happens., You need domains, hosting, and software, all of which costs money that college students seldom have, an takes time,which college kids usually use for studies or lust.

    When someone starts learning SEO, they build few sites, then con friends into letting them experiment on theirs. As their skills grow, friends and acquaintances ask you to help them with their businesses, and you do and you learn more.

    Soon you figure out a method that works for you and everything clicks. The people you are helping all start to make a lot of money, and they say "Thank You". Then they stand around and tell everyone how they built their business.

    When you realize the value of what they got, and how much you can buy with those "Thank You's", you understand that your skill can make a lot of money.

    Shorty after that, usually when they buy a house or go on vacation, you have an epiphany: the catalyst for getting the actual money was YOU.

    As soon as you realize that you are worth the sum of your efforts, not the sum of your labor, you quit wasting your valuable time on people who aren't worth your time.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2013
  15. Vic Sage

    Vic Sage Jr. VIP Jr. VIP

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,716
    Likes Received:
    2,110
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Scientist Performing Marketing Experiments
    True dat!
     
  16. SkyrocketSEO

    SkyrocketSEO Jr. VIP Jr. VIP Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Messages:
    4,345
    Likes Received:
    11,253
    Occupation:
    travəlɪŋ
    Location:
    Aibres
    Home Page:
    @OP, don't let anyone tell you can't do it.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 3
  17. alwayslistening

    alwayslistening Newbie

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2013
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    2
    Sorry.... i didnt make it clear. He is a landscaper... the online business has nothing to do with that, its a national business... he wasnt sending traffic to a landscaping website... but i still completely agree, most likely it wont convert much, i know he was approaching $100 a day in adsense though so hes getting further than most people haha.



    This boils my blood. I didnt get lucky when i hired that kid, i got lucky when i was born to be as handsome as i am, Ill go get 5 more developers at low/fair wages.... so tired of everyone flaring them up... I AM THE LEADER.... they dont know how to make money, im not sure what people dont understand about that.... some of them dont want to sit in a box and intern at bank of america doing "database work"... whatever the hell that is. How about this.,... i hired that kid, went out that same month got 10k worth of sidework, netted 8k on it..in under a weeks worth of time (we did 2 hours a day of sidework) Some of it was complex things, other was simple small biz ones for $2k that went up in 3 hours with templates... its all about who knows how to market and sell.... and im not trying to teach any of you that, if anyone understands that... its this forum. Back to the subject though.

    What is expedia doing?
    What is lendingtree doing?
    What is snapon doing?
    What is gopro doing?

    The point is.... CEO's and founders are getting things done SEO wise and theyre not executing it. I am profitable so im ok with spending money to get people to show up. One of those guys above MUST be seeing a positive ROI... i do not believe its all for "branding".... hate that word.

    Who works in their company everyday and does SEO?
    If not who are they hiring?

    Im in a b2b realm with potential to scale exponentially, its not a niche business so again, SEO efforts can pay off really big if done right.


    Something has hit me though as im reading through this thread. I need to identify what each keyword is grossing a month... not netting.

    If i see "widgets" is bringing in 20k a month.... and im paying 16k/m in PPC....

    I should then research around, ask as many SEO companies approx how long it would take to get first page for "widgets"... and see what their rate is. I doubt it will make sense as they will prob want too much but atleast ill get some grasp on it. I have friends that have gotten 1-3 first page on google for slightly niche medium competition sites and they would help give me their oursourcers but im in a broader more competitive market so not even sure if their tactics will work in highly competitive area like mine.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2013
  18. Sneeks

    Sneeks Junior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    Messages:
    188
    Likes Received:
    46
    Occupation:
    Observing Internet Movements
    Location:
    My credit card
    I just got back into the SEO game and I think what I'm about to tell you, I read somewhere along the thread. The best way for experimentation is setup a few dummy sites with micro-niches. Then once you kind of catch the grasp of how SEO works and what is going on. Then aim for your big fish prize.

    Even when I was testing out SEO services, I would assign each one to a micro-niche site. Each niche was similar in competition rate, exact searchs, and similar simple wordpress designs with exact plugins. This is how I was able to prove whos work was better than others.

    I slowly do things myself but I had to figure out which SEO guys had the best work for outsourcing. Even certain methods could be better than others. For example, I still can't figure out press releases myself so I still hire someone for that. Even though I would love to know more about it.

    I learn new things about SEO everyday. THE WEB IS HUGE. Honestly, if you wanted to go completely whitehat about things, find similar forums/blogs/facebook pages/web 2.0s, etc about your niche. Contribute to the webmasters and they will be proudly enough not to flag you or bust your balls.

    A lot of SEO guys don't drip feed naturally or even place your website on pages that are anywhere similar to your content. They just see, "OMG PR8, POST" and then from there who knows what will come about that when the next google animal comes to life.

    It's completely possible to do SEO yourself, but the question is, would it distract your day by day functions of running your normal business? Even if you could come up with a questionnaire of things you may want to ask each SEO expert... do so. Enough of my babble babble, I just dont have any articles to write right now :)
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  19. alwayslistening

    alwayslistening Newbie

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2013
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    2
    Correct. I cant grow the business if i do that.... i can lol with traffic.... but cant in actuality... you get what i mean.
     
  20. vjchere

    vjchere Power Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2012
    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    30
    Hire people who just knows basic stuff, and keep yourself as much free as possible. Get most of the seo process work done through them an.