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The G Dance

Discussion in 'Black Hat SEO' started by bagging, Jun 8, 2009.

  1. bagging

    bagging Newbie

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    Hello everybody.

    The past 6 months I have been working on SEO optimizing of an automated rss site. Now I?m writing this post so others can benefit from the answers and I can get more sides/ideas of the theory I have. I have read a lot of SEO articles, Ebooks etc. and executing the ideas. I got more and more aware of that getting a good ranking is not hard, it's hard staying ranked.

    I created a lot of web 2.0 pages (Hubpages, Webpaint, blogger), did bookmarking etc. etc. Focused on our keywords and did all that SEO stuff. It worked like a charm - we ranked high on our keyword and got good traffic. I have done this, as said, for 6 month so I became aware for a certain pattern on G. when we execute a SEO campaign. If I did onpage optimization the first 2-3 days our site completely was remove (or like on page 5-6 on G).When I just did SEO campaigns after 1 week the site was on 1-3 on that keyword and stayed there for some time but slowly decreased.
    I saw this pattern or a pattern really close, to this one on MANY keywords! Sites was ?removed?(if I did onpage), then ranked and at last found some sort of steady ranking. I began to wonder why this Dance was happening and what the idea of it was. Surely it's not for the fun of it!

    How I think this works: I think G has some sort of try out period when raking a website. So when a hype accurse (Our SEO campaign) G will place the site on the first page and let some searchers go into the site and then judge the site on this happening. So if many of the searchers click back in their browsers quickly after entering your site this is an indication that your sites position on G isn?t optimal (for the searchers), hence the searcher didn?t find what they were looking for. This makes good sense in my mind to judge a site on this.
    After following many keywords and phrases in the logs it seems to me like this is somehow a part of the truth cause some the phrases I got traffic from, which had a high ?reject %? (Reject in G analytics) rank decreased on G the higher the reject was.
    Does anyone have any experience related to my research?
    My next move in this field is to try to do the same thing we have been doing again and try to use different methods to lower the reject %. My thoughts on this:
    1. BH ? Write some clever JS that makes it impossible for the user to go back (Risk is high if G spots this, and we can?t have 0% reject cause this would be unnatural so cloaking should properly be involved as well)
    2. WH ? writing a script that imports related videos, articles, pirctures to the content so the user wants to stay. (Due to this is auto imported rss and content is short = higher reject / view time per user)
    I would love to have a good post about this subject because I really think people could benefit from the knowledge ? so please feel free to ?correct? me if you think I?m wrong or if you think that I have misunderstood something.

    And remember ? DO IT! Reading doesn?t make you rich!

    Cheers :)
     
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  2. SEO20

    SEO20 Elite Member

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    Think you are on to something here - in general it's bad practice to alter on site SEO after the page has been indexed. Especially if the page is young.

    Regarding the tricks - got me thinking...
     
  3. bagging

    bagging Newbie

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    Thats right! it is not a good practice to alter the on site SEO when the site has been indexed, this is properly why the site is "removed" for some time cause G needs to reevaluated your site. This caused a lot of worries when it happened but it seems if you put some effort into link backs, new articles etc you get back on the result pages in 1-2 weeks with the new onsite keywords. If anyone can find some articles on this post subject i would be great if you post it! I can't seem to find anything very usefull with some good research behind it.. Found something in a ebook once but can't remember the name of it! Damn brain! hehe
     
  4. Jagged55

    Jagged55 Power Member

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    I can say that I have similar results with WH sites. If I launch a brand new site and give it a few quality targeted backlinks, it will appear very high in the index within a day or two (depending on the niche and keywords of course). It will float around the first two pages for a couple days after that. If my keywords are unique enough, the site will stick somewhere near the bottom of page 1 or 2. If it is competitive, it gets sandboxed for awhile it seems (regardless of backlinks). Why does this happen? Lol, I have no idea! Long ago I stopped trying to figure out what Google is doing and just kept pumping the sites out. It eventually settles and the sites do ok if things were done properly.

    In relation to this, I had a site launch and rank in the top 5 for my keyword. I got some quick action and clicks. The site danced a bit and then got deindexed completely. Very strange indeed! The only thing that I could think of is that the theme I used was "Adsense Ready" and I don't normally use themes that have that feature. I guess I will change the theme and see what happens.
     
  5. SEO20

    SEO20 Elite Member

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    I have a few domains - it seems like the progressive dancing stops around 6-12 months. I bet it's not cut in stone.
     
  6. 4alllifestyles

    4alllifestyles Junior Member

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    Exactly right... That's because it's part of the overall dynamic algorithm that G is using.... Observation suggests that it's all part of how PR is evaluating things.

    1) Index it, put it high for newness, watch clickthroughs and if they have Analytics use that data too (bouncerate) as an indicator of usefulness.

    2) Since the dataset is small the site will bounce around for a couple weeks til it finally settles in to where it would "organically" land.

    3) Site may appear to "deep six" for a few days. I think (opinion and observation) that if radically different results come from the various G datacenters that the PR algo get's "confused" so the site data needs to be averaged. But not for in-total results but in per-datacenter results. The site really doesn't disappear, but PR is in disarray til some sort of cleanup operation happens on the data that reconciles the dissimilar results from the various datacenters.

    4) link velocity then starts taking hold bigtime... If your getting a decent flow of backlinks that over the course of time is consistantly growing, your golden. If it goes up/down/up/down or a ton of backlinks suddently appear overnight then link velocity begins to work against you.

    The net effect of all of this is that if you do just a few key things your position on G will start high, disappear for two or three days then land where it really ranks. Then links and link velocity begin to do their thing.

    A couple things I do with my sites that works extremely well....

    1) Don't make the site live til it's "done".. Templates stable, site SEO done, a few days of content already onboard, web2.0 strategies, etc. already in play (accounts made, posts ready to go, etc.).

    2) However you do backlinks make it consistent and ever growing. If your gonna dump 100,000 backlinks out there overnight it's okay, just make sure that you either use pinging to spread out the indexing or put out 100000 every day. Be consistent. If you can manage to make the backlinks per day slowly grow over time even better. 100 today, 200 tomorrow, 300 next day, etc.

    3) DON'T PANIC WHEN YOUR SITE GOES UP/DOWN EVERY COUPLE MONTHS. Lots of people go nuts when their page drops for a few days and make wholesale changes. This is when my sites take over their slots and dominate. I love when my competitors panic when their pages "wobble" on the G. It's when my consistency kills them.

    Anyway, that's my observations. Didn't intend to ramble but this is what I observe.
     
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  7. bagging

    bagging Newbie

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    Great post.. Excatly what i wanted out from this post. What about the reject rate, do you think it would be a good idea to try briging it down with some scripts ? I really think if this is used somehow to rank a page this must be a area that not many have spoken about or even tryed out.. I will properly post something in the future about this but i will take a lot of time and results to get some good info about it
     
  8. FleshJoe

    FleshJoe Power Member

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    Don't give G more data than you absolutely have to. I don't use google analytics on any of my sites... Hint to the wise, there's equally good tools out there.

    In fact the only sites I use google analytics on are the ones where I use adsense.
     
  9. SEO20

    SEO20 Elite Member

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    The harder it is for Google to track if the user returned back into the SERP - meaning that it was not relevant - the better.

    Great way of thinking - thinking about tools to be created :)
     
  10. rudyvise

    rudyvise Jr. VIP Jr. VIP

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    This is a very good thread. I'd like to see more conversations like this. More specifically about how Google responds to SEO over time. Very interesting, thanks.

    best,

    Rudy
     
  11. x4ng3l

    x4ng3l Registered Member

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    Let me see...
    If i use google analitycs, its can decrease my site ranking based in site info and data?

    Finally... use or don't use?
     
  12. SEO20

    SEO20 Elite Member

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    Nothing is cut in stone. It all depends - like anything else in life. But the less factors G or other has to track you - the better.
     
  13. bagging

    bagging Newbie

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    I dont completly agree on this, I would say it really depends on what site you are running.

    In my situation is a WH site with content sorted in meaningfull categories for the user, sure we have used some BH methods for SEO etc, but i see it as a WH site cause we don't fake anything or put spinned content on the site. We even link to the orginal creators of the post in the rss feeds. So in a situation where you "don't" have anything to "hide" i think you are awarded for using G tools. But i dont know for sure, no one does. But i have one example i can use not related to G Ana but webmaster tools. After we added our sitemap to G and stated pinging them every hour our site get indexed all the time! G sees our site as a news source and when something related to our niche is popular we get traffic on this topic.

    But okay i agree that you could just another ana prog, so many good one out there.. But my tatics for the moment is to LICK G ASS!
     
  14. SEO20

    SEO20 Elite Member

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    I still like to stay WAY under the radar :)

    If G can't track users back into the SERP - it can't hurt you in their algorithm. But licking ass on WH sites seems like a fun idea. Maybe I should try that - anyone else doing G ass licking?
     
  15. bagging

    bagging Newbie

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    lol.. G Ass licking should be a new topic!
     
  16. bagging

    bagging Newbie

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    lol.. G Ass licking should be a new topic!
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2009
  17. SEO20

    SEO20 Elite Member

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    I like G Ass licking better than Boss Ass licking - he he.