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Someones taking a piece of pie from my old mans business?

Discussion in 'BlackHat Lounge' started by AussieDollar, Oct 20, 2015.

  1. AussieDollar

    AussieDollar Registered Member

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    Old man = my dad.
    "friend" = my dads business partner.

    So my old man flipped he's plate on dinner table and got mad for everybody.

    Later I had a chat with him.

    He owns a big furniture factory with he's friend. They used to work together in furniture factory, but my old man wanted to expand and do fit-outs too. Someone orders a job from the factory and he does the fit-out and the factory provides the furnitures. Unfortunately the invoice goes to the office which is inside the factory. So my old man never sees the costs and etc...

    Today he finally told me that the business isn't doing too good. He's been working 12-15 hour days 6-7 days a week for 3 years. Last year the business went -$250,000 down. He's suspecting that he's friend is taking more than just the whole pie. So no wonder he finally flipped out.

    He's not starting his own business for fit-outs as the job orders are coming mainly from the factory. So he can't quit the business. What he really wants is a proof that he's friend is stealing from him.

    So I asked him why he doesn't go through the paper work. "The guy (friend) keeps changing the numbers".
    Why don't you have a chat with the guys who orders the job? "They won't give me the figures. My friend must have said something to them".

    This sounds bit fishy to me, but my old man asked a favour so I'm trying to figure out something.

    So I got two ideas.

    1. I did a keyword research for the fit-outs and it's lucrative niche and low competition. So I could set him up with the guy who orders the fitout jobs from the factory with a website (Because he can't do just fitouts. Customers want the whole package). This way the "friend" couldn't touch the numbers.

    2. I could spy on the "friend". I would need to be able to see the prints and the computer screen.
    So if anyone knows how I could spy/copy all the prints he's getting I would appreciate that. I can access the office anytime. I also thought setting a keyword spy to his computer, but I doubt it would be enough. And I doubt I can do something similar to "teamviewer" without him to notice the software running on background. I also thought about putting a small microphone chip to his "phonewallet".


    What you guys think? The whole thing sounds bit fishy to me. But I want to help my old man somehow.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2015
  2. Sherbert Hoover

    Sherbert Hoover Jr. Executive VIP Jr. VIP

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    I'm not sure what I'm reading.

    I read the thing three times, and I can't get past all the "my old man", "fit-outs", and "flipped"...
     
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  3. AussieDollar

    AussieDollar Registered Member

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    Hopefully it's a bit easier to understand now.
     
  4. Sherbert Hoover

    Sherbert Hoover Jr. Executive VIP Jr. VIP

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    Don't do anything illegal.

    Find proof if you can, then get a lawyer. Not sure how it works in Australia, but I'd suggest, if you can find evidence that the business partner is causing these drops in revenue, to immediately drop him and just bust ass even more to make up the difference, then bring down a lawsuit.

    This isn't something you need to be asking a bunch of wannabe geniuses on a sketchy internet marketing forum. The numbers you're talking about are felony range, and you need to seek legal and financial advice from professionals.
     
  5. AussieDollar

    AussieDollar Registered Member

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    It could never become a lawsuit for certain reason. I was just hoping that someone could give a hint of how to access the old prints or something similar.

    Wannabe geniuses are my favourite type of people ;)

     
  6. GrahamCrackers

    GrahamCrackers BANNED BANNED

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    Do an audit and you'll find all discrepancies
     
  7. sully1975

    sully1975 Jr. VIP Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    As an electrician and speaking in a North East vernacular of the American language, we do tenant fit outs sometimes expressed as fit ups and possibly spelled with hyphens. This is taking the interior of a building and bringing it to look like some spec. An example would be an Apple Store in the mall. Usually you have fairly standard lighting and power specifications. I would assume the same goes for furniture too.

    So, if you have a customer that has a cookie cutter like quote for furniture for a certain design, backwards engineer the price from that. Another way would be if the procurement office for whatever large company or general contractor would tell you whom else is bidding against you and ask for their quote. This may require some human engineering.

    Doesn't taxation require some sort of w9 related between the contractor and the project/contractor like we do in the states each year?

    I assume a local OZ board with a forensic accounting or bookkeeping section would be the better way to answer this for you.
     
  8. Asif WILSON Khan

    Asif WILSON Khan Executive VIP Jr. VIP

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    Are you sure your old man actually owns part of the business? It sounds like a very one sided partnership.
    Has your Dad spoken to his accountant? Ask him to do an audit.
    Then contact a Lawyer.
     
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  9. Digitalist

    Digitalist Registered Member

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    I second a forensic accountant. This guy has to be cooking the books in order to bury this. Any money he takes out of the company would leave a trail so they could dig it up somewhere. To be honest though, the existing accountant/bookkeeper is probably in on it otherwise when they were preparing the annual filings a red flag would have gone up.

    Whatever you do, stay out of the middle. It is easy to caught in their mess and go down with the ship you never sailed to begin with.
     
  10. asap1

    asap1 BANNED BANNED Jr. VIP

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    In a partnership you should be open with everything related to the business, its no reason to hide anything.

    From what I read I would definitely get legal people to look into this.
     
  11. the_demon

    the_demon Jr. Executive VIP

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    If you dad owns part of the business then he might be able to put a key logger on the computer legally, but I would seek the advice of a lawyer before doing that just to be safe.
     
  12. twitter.followers

    twitter.followers Jr. VIP Jr. VIP

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    Spying on the computer would definitely help but legal advice from your lawyer should be considered before you start working on that.

    And if that doesn't helps, you could try changing the model of the business on who takes the order, the way they're recorded and everything else to make the whole process a lot more transparent!
     
  13. Ste Fishkin

    Ste Fishkin Jr. VIP Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    I have 2 ideas:


    1. If your father owns more than 25% (UK Law, check locally) hes entitled to call for an audit to be carried out any time he wishes, this would be my first step.
    2. Pretend to be a customer, ask for the factory to do some work for you and get a quote from them. You may need a friend to pretend to be a customer here. Get the work done and compare what your friend paid to what your fathers business partner reported as the price.


    If your father does not own shares in the company he is fucked anyway, just walk away but the accountant route is the way to go.
     
  14. tony_d

    tony_d Elite Member

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    The best thing I can think of is to flip his dinner plate at the table and get mad 'for' everybody.
     
  15. AussieDollar

    AussieDollar Registered Member

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    I had a chat with my dad on weekend and asked about the audit. He did request it last week.

    He doesn't believe it would help as he have contacted the contractors who ordered the jobs and they won't give the figures.

    He believes his friend haves another bank account where he puts money in separate invoice which would be already agreed with the contractor.

    How I see it:

    Contractor orders a job for $120,000 --> $100,000 Invoice goes to the factory --> $xx,xxx/20,000 Invoice/payment goes to the "friends" "private" bank account.

    Ofc this is just what my dad assumes. It would explain why the "friend" won't agree to increase the prices at the factory.

    Thanks for all the great answers!
     
  16. ego_whore

    ego_whore Regular Member

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    Place a custom order yourself with the furniture company, this way you'll know the total cost of the order, and the profits that your old man is getting after the company's slice.
     
  17. UrsuAke

    UrsuAke Power Member

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    I don't have very much info to go with so I could be wrong but based on what you said and as I understand it, your father isn't a partner in the company but an employee.

    Another possibility is that your father is part of a very shady illegal activity. If he has a stake in the company then he must have 100% access to the financials of the company, if that's not happening then he can sue his partner for withholding information and if the legislation in your country supports this, he can ask the financial police to come in and enforce his rights without going to court all together, that can be done with a phone call to the tax authorities, but it depends on the legislation in your country.

    Second, a business doesn't run on this example: I get an order, I deliver it and I pocket the money via an invoice. That's illegal and tax evasion. The only way it can work this way is if your business is registered as a registered sole trader with limited liability, which a factory of furniture can never be.

    The way a business like a factory for producing furniture is run differs from a sole trader completely. You can't just take the money out of the company like that. You as an owner or co-owner get a monthly salary on which you pay taxes, so the salary mustn't be astronomical or else your business won't be profitable (taxes on salary can make up to 40% of the salary amount in some cases). You get the rest of the profits at the end of the fiscal year.

    Also, all the money coming in must be accounted for very precisely because you are spending money as well (buying materials, paying for electricity, spending on machine parts). All those spent money has as well taxes that need to be deducted from the profits. Anyway I won't get into the subject because it's a long story, if you're curious about this take up accounting classes or talk with an accountant.

    Bottom line is that the bank accounts on which the monies arrive into from orders must be public and submitted to the tax authorities or else you go to jail for tax fraud.

    Another bottom line is that you can't just take money out of the business whenever you want because that is also illegal. The correct way on which partners pocket the profits from a business is via DIVIDENDS at the end of the fiscal year which is in most parts of the world the end of December. You also can't have two companies you personally own that trade with each other because that is illegal as well.

    Anything else is just fraud or illegal so, OP, if what you say is true, I urge your father to seek legal help as fast as possible so he doesn't get indicted for fraud alongside his partner or worse, be thrown under the bus by his partner. If he's smart he can make things look like your father was behind it all along.

    Hope this helps.