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Is There No Way To Stop You Guys!!??

Discussion in 'BlackHat Lounge' started by seoagent, Mar 1, 2008.

  1. seoagent

    seoagent Newbie

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    TO FORUM MODERATOR: Please feel free to post this in any other section if you think it is not appropriate here. Thank you.

    Wow! First let me say I am happy there is a forum (voice) for all the Internet Pirates out here. It's been along time coming.:D Finally some organization. The last best thing like this to hit the web was the Bit Torrent Network. I never even knew what a keyword generator was until I came across bit torrents some three plus years ago.

    Secondly, The Forum "Contract" (Rules) were so well thought out and intense, I'm still dizzy from reading it's length.:eek: I'm surprised there isn't an affiliate link to some law office for contractual consultation and my rights.
    (Who said I had any rights here? :p LOL)

    Thirdly, as a community of financial opportunists I can not blame you. You are the product at the opposite end of the candle burning at both ends. At one end years back, there were the greedy little twenty something a-holes with zero morality. Who took their geek-like skills and went hard to use mail order tactics so they could make some money off the 35 to 50 year old male market who were always desperate to get out of their day to day jobs.

    So desperate they handed these young twenty something geeks a few dollars just to take a look at what they could possibly offer. That was some twelve years ago. And nothing has changed here, except the language is more personable and the graphics have gotten better.

    Well with the housing market in the US the way it is, the male audience is even larger than ever (35 to 50 years old) and therefore, the Internet Marketing Gurus (still twenty to thirty something a-holes) have come in droves.

    Click Bank registered some six to one thousand new digital products in the last three and half months. Gravity Index was at a all time high then back in November. "The 12 Month Millionaire" surpassed almost 800. A brand new Clcik Bank record for the most units sold in a day!

    Yet something peculiar has started to emerge. This morning I noticed Click Bank's highest selling product had a Gravity Index of only 597.89. So what does it all mean? This unique group is at the other end of the candle. It is the flame that is burning brighter and brighter. It is the flame of "You want to rip me off? Well do ya? PUNK!"

    Finally, the consumer speaks with a vengeance! You guys don't want "100% Iron Clad Guarantees." You want what you paid for. And take a good look. Like this forum says, "If you must post your stupid idiot ebooks, then do it here."

    I couldn't agree more. A obvious prediction is Click Bank, and every other digital product selling network will go down the road of Napster. By the time they wake up, it will be too late. An I have come to another more glaring observation: If it is a digital product, software, information, video, or otherwise; is there now way to prevent file sharing?

    I would love to hear from all of you. You have provided a wealth of information here. I have only stumbled upon your website in a search for something else.
    My purpose is to confirm the truth about digital files. And therefore realize the future of what people may do honestly to make a living online.

    It's my belief as I have well proven it in my own tests, if it is a file in digital format, access can be blocked at the server level. Only if the file requires authentication before access.

    However, if it is a pdf, mp3, video file, or any other digital information product, it can be plagiarized, completely repackaged, and file shared even legally.

    This leads me to only three categories for future online employment:

    1. Sell a service. Membership sites are actually service websites. Same with webcams and even banking. Requires people at one level or another, no matter how automated.

    2. Sell software. But only if access is blocked at the server level and authentication requires same IP number as at the time of download and purchase. User looses rights to access if Internet Connection is not present.

    3.Sell advertising. The web is one big mashup of traditional print, radio, and television all in one place. Use whatever media required to attract people to see ads.

    4. Sell hard goods. Harder to sell, even harder to share. Be an affiliate for, as long as it is not a DVD, book, or CD.

    After thirteen plus years on the web, I can not see any other money making idea the web is good for. I would like to hear from all in this forum who can add to this very short list. Did I miss anything?

    Let me know if any one has figured out how to stop file sharing or reproduction of all things digital. Finally, the candle at this end of file sharing dissatisfied consumers will continue to burn brighter.

    The question for discussion here is, "When it burns so bright as to melt the candle somewhere in the middle, will there be any new digital files to share when each one created is shared almost instantly upon release?"

    Interesting the way the web balances itself out isn't it? And as effective as the methods of those little twenty something geeks were some twelve years ago; so to are your methods of stopping them cold in their greedy little tracks.

    You have taught me well. I was going to create real value in the form of video, pdfs, and podcasts, but why? There is no sense in it. :rolleyes:Please feel free to jump in on this. There's lots to talk about if we are all to have a future online.

    Sincerely, Robert Lang
    Digital Media Producer
    Chase Global Media

    P.S. I had a saying I use to say thirteen years ago, "If it has a zero or a one in it, I can have it for free." Am I still right?:)
     
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  2. Nick Flame

    Nick Flame Executive VIP Premium Member

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    I did not get what you wanna say. Would you mind to cut the crap and make your point more directly? We do not need a one page sales letter to tell us something that can be summarized in one sentence.
     
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  3. Essential Clix

    Essential Clix Executive VIP Premium Member

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    To sum it up: yes, the web is still a dangerous place. And yes, no matter what you do, your digital products can still be stolen and shared for free. It is just something programmers/authors/artists have to come to terms with. The only thing you can do to even remotely get around that fact is to offer updated content to subscribers using a membership/subscriber site. And even that isn't fool proof.

    Also, If you think we share a lot of files HERE, you should check out vanillashare, or iranjava, or some russian warez sites. Or for that matter, visit a torrent search site...
     
  4. seoagent

    seoagent Newbie

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    1. It's not a sales letter, it's called a conversation.
    2. If one page seems long for you, stop reading, this post is not for you.
    3. There are many points and here they are:

    (i) The practices used by members of this forum and beyond, improve the distribution systems of digital products. By exposing the weaknesses of the system itself. i.e. 1995 Internet and credit card transactions.

    (ii) Due to the hyped up methods of Click Bank and the like presenting digital products, forums such as this one will continue to flourish. The point being is almost all of those products offer very little value and should be freely distributed (shared).

    (iv) The rest of the really good and useful products should be protected. The only method I have seen is Strictly IP Authentication - wrong IP, no access.
    However, even though this can be hacked, it proves to be the highest defense against piracy and file sharing to date.

    (V) The Internet as a monetization tool in business: This forum uses only one, twenty-five dollar inclusion for "offers" to forum members. The other methods are advertising, software and information product sales, hard goods sold, and finally selling a service. A service usually is either data or skilled based.
    The point being, "What can you do to make a living online?"

    *If this is getting too long for you, now is a good time to stop reading. :twitch:
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Thanks back to Luther13z. As mentioned, it is good to see a forum where the collective efforts of file sharers, software and website hackers is brought forth. I don't blame the members one bit, but rather the pinheads who didn't see this coming. And to this day, say nothing about how their customers can be taken to the cleaners. CB is only one of them. How about CJ. The list is as long as they are "affiliate" payment processors.

    Their banks are as guilty as they are for even carrying these types of business models. My focus is assuring people's efforts for digital creation get rewarded. Something has got to change. Your forum is a beacon of light for this change.

    Your forum here puts it to rest the marketing methods used by merchants at CB will not go unpunished. I truly dislike their hype. Hype sells, yes, but at what cost? It's the old "take the little guy to the cleaners" all over again. And "what harm can it be," they ask? (CB Merchants and the like). "It's only $47. It's not like we're throwing them out on the streets."

    No but at $47 tens of thousands of times over, they can only justify their claim by saying, "Well, we offer a money back guarantee." As I said Luther13z, I am very happy you forum is here and I will let thousands of interested potential "affiliate" payment processing merchant's customers know all about it. I'm not kidding.

    Your platform screams for change in the digital arts community. The two points being:

    (i) Stop selling hype and stop selling garbage products over and over again with different graphics.
    (ii) Stop all current distribution channels and come up with one that protects the rights of digital product authors and code writers, before you try and "sell" us anything.

    I thank you Luther13z for you efforts here.;)
    -----------------------------------------------------------

    Thank you to essential_clix for affirming the facts here. "If it's digital, it's free." There is no criticism about this forum file sharing at all. Let it flourish. It needs to.It is part of an online revolution that has extended past the traditional photo and music file sharing of 1996 (even earlier is some cases - MIRC).

    But I do make the point that if people on any scale are going to earn a living online long term, there needs to be in place checks for products that have already been sold under a already existing graphic package. And there has to be in place checks to protect digital artists against piracy and unauthorized file sharing.

    Otherwise, where is the employment. With out an economy past "free" and shear advertising, the web will remain where it is. If that continues, it will wain and die like a plant without water. We need real solutions of course and I am not suggesting this forum is the platform for it. Far from it.

    But it can not be understated, this forum is part of the solution, not the problem. This forum members have shown me that one could download thousands of digital products freely.

    And I would also argue the sticky post concerning "it is wrong" to do this is in question. The web is public domain and therefore whatever can be downloaded freely through a url locator is defintely public domain.

    I do not hide behind IP proxies and as you can see I post my real name and stand behind my words. I know the law and if I have gained access to any files without entering a password, I have complete access rights as protected by my own government to access. The Internet is public domain and therefore any files I have gained are also public domain.

    Of course they have to originate from the original author's website. I speak of using the Alexa Search engine and Google's own search tool This is perfectly legitimate and no one should feel they are breaking the law. They are not.

    Only if the files have been downloaded and then published to another website, such as a file sharing community without the original publisher's permission, are their grounds for punitive damages seeked by the original author. This is their right, but due to legal costs, almost all decide not to pursue it.

    Finally essential_clix, if anyone from this forum community is seeking to making a living online, they will need to come together on this one. I'm working on it myself. I believe I have found some of the solutions, but there are no absolutes as you have mentioned. I'll post when I have some meaningful answers for those who want to actually sell good quality products online and make a living from it long term.

    Thanks everyone for your input. To all the community here: If you want to really share your worth, I found the post speaking about what to enter in the search engine at Alexa quite useful. It is true, you can spend at least two days downloading all that you need. But like so many software and information packages, the real power is in using what you downloaded and not for the shear sake of downloading them because you can.:)
     
  5. Nick Flame

    Nick Flame Executive VIP Premium Member

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    I think i got the idea. You wanna say that we have to invent something to prevent file/ebooks sharing on the web in order to make a living right?

    Good, but think about this: Movies companies, or game companies, or software developers with high big budgets in the range of million of dollars - you can not even compare the clickbank guys with them- they have tried to protect their goods using a lot of methods, but yet their programs are freely distributed on the web, although a movie or a game is MUCH harder to be distributed than an ebook.

    The only way you can protect your digital goods, is to sell them only to a very small number of people, so that no one spills the beans. If you go and sell to many customers, there will be at least one of them who would spread the words.

    Let me tell you something: Imagine that you device a security system such that only the buyer has access to your product through an online interface, with no way to download the product on their computer.

    What makes you think he is not gonna copy paste or make screenshots of what he sees and post the product later?
    What if he can not make screenshots, and if he can not copy paste, then he will just get those words, and write them into a pdf and spread it.

    There is no way you can stop file sharing on the web, if one of your customers wants to spread them.

    What s the solution? Give to your customers something so valuable, that they will just want to keep it for themselves, and make money, and they would never want to share it with someone else.

    But that s almost impossible.
     
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  6. Nick Flame

    Nick Flame Executive VIP Premium Member

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    Forgot to add, big clickbank publishers do not care so much for ebook spreading. Why? cause there are enough stupid people in the world to buy their product. They already make millions of $ from those. Instead of focusing their efforts on preventing digital spreading and investing money in this, they better go and create another product and make another several millions. That s how it works.
     
  7. lynnw196

    lynnw196 Newbie

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    I do agree with Nick Flame. I have written one ebook and I do plan on listing it with clickbank. I will pay the rip off listing fee which I should make up with just a few sales, and then let the affiliates carry it if they want. I do not care if it ends up getting out for free. Here's why? affiliate links. Like any e-book I have mine in it, so if more people still get it for free that's more exposure and hopefully cash for me, for anyone using the method. I also plan on giving it away free (hopefully) during a short special opt-in easter JV promotion. I truly believe all e-book authors expect this and do benefit from it in the long run. Just my opinion :D
     
  8. Thumb

    Thumb Newbie

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    Wow,
    You guys can really put out some words!
    :D
     
  9. Essential Clix

    Essential Clix Executive VIP Premium Member

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    We have about as good a chance at winning the war on file sharing as we do the war on drugs...

    Just remember, if it's man-made, it can be reverse engineered or brute-forced. If you plan on making a living online with digital products, the only thing you can do is pay for the best digital protection your money can buy and deal with the fact that it's going to be shared somewhere for free. You could also spend a LOT of time on all the major file-sharing forums and warez sites (that you can find), chasing down your files and sending complaint letters to the companies hosting them in hopes that they'll be removed. It's only a short-term solution, as your files will probably just be re-uploaded again, but it's part of the game you have to play if you truly want to cut down on the sharing of your files.

    And like Nick said, think of the movie industry and the RIAA. They spent a TON of money developing an anti-copy scheme for DVDs that was cracked within a week by some kid with a sharpe marker... Each subsequent attempt after that has also been cracked. And if they can't do it with millions of dollars and excellent programmers at their disposal, how can we?
     
  10. nicho

    nicho Regular Member

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    seo You must be a college grad as you have a verse for words that is inherent in teachers....translated in the real world a load of bollocks........

    What makes you think that this or anyother forum could influence or dent the sales of the big boys in this world of ours...it just shows that you have not a clue of marketing and selling regardless of your fancy words .

    as much as 25 years ago people were saying direct mail and mail order is dead ..is it fuck its prospering, and so are the majority of the internet companies including clickbank and the rest.

    As long as people have emotions there will be impulse buyers even if they have to pick up the tab later on the credit card.

    The other guys in here will tell you l am not one to have a pop at people normally but with you my bullshit detector is at full so if you have any opinions about is there any way you can stop us guys....think it through first because we are not even a ripple in the big pond.

    As for producing products that is real easy and not limited to any one area, you just need to be creative then do it.
     
  11. rightstart

    rightstart Newbie

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    As someone who has been in the information product business since 1981, I can tell you that copying and sharing is hardly new and certainly didn't start in the digital world. My company's first product was a technical training course sold on VHS tapes (or Sony Beta for those old enough to remember) with accompanying workbooks. Sure, we got copied, but I never considered it lost revenue because people who copy are NEVER going to buy from you anyway. That's why I always laugh when I hear in the media how many billions software companies lose each year to piracy. The actual figure is a tiny fraction of those billions. Copiers simply don't buy. They copy because they can and in general don't use, or make little use of the products they copy. My second business was strictly software. Started it in 1990. Again, we got copied of course. The important point to be made is that there are enough honest people willing to spend their hard-earned dollars IF you have a good product. In fact, both of those businesses were very successful and earned me enough so I don't have to worry about money any more. My third business is also information. In fact, it's the same information I was selling in 1981 on videotape, same industry, same topics, but repackaged and updated for broadband delivery. It's a membership model and is also successful. People pay because the information is good and in high demand. They continue paying monthly because we keep the information updated and offer other membership benefits that are sufficient value added for the monthly fee.

    So I guess what I'm saying is I personally do not worry about piracy, sharing, copying, whatever you want to call it. I've managed to make decent money selling information for the past 27 years. Meanwhile, I've had competitors focus on the copiers and not the customers and they all went out of business (or I bought them out). Better mousetraps sold 100 years ago and they'll sell 100 years from now. It's really very simple. Find out what your market wants and deliver it better than anyone else. It's as white hat as it gets, but it is built to last. And it does. For year after year after year. Peace.
     
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  12. seoagent

    seoagent Newbie

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    Thanks Nick. You words are very true. What I am finding out is the dream of affiliate sales is only accurate when the products are sold to people who have zero knowledge of obtaining the same products for free.

    These are the same people who don't understand backups, viruses, and still use the completely non-protected wireless networks from their own home. So that even a granny could cruise any neighborhood with a laptop and gain access to each home's network. Then use a nice sniffer program to gain access passwords and user names to Mom and Dad's computers. Then rifle through their online bank accounts using the saved text files of all their investment passwords. Oops! Did I give it away?:eek:

    At least for now, but the world off line is slowly catching up. With forums like these and the spread of the web, just as people flogged to buy computers to get all their songs for free. So too, will they flog once again to get all the free money making information along with free software. But instead of the junk, they'll go for gold investment, foreclosure renovation dreams, and whatever else seems to be the next make and break trend.
     
  13. apekillape

    apekillape Senior Member Premium Member

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    That's the thing though. The key isn't the products or even the methods themselves, it's in the application and foresight to use them properly. Yesteryear's snake-oil salesman are today's Nigerian mail scammers. It's the exact same concept, the technique just changes with the times.

    When Napster first came out, music sharing was already huge in the dirty back-alleys of the internet. But then 5 years after everyone who already knew what the hell they were doing got sick of it, "regular people" finally figured it out and it got spotlighted. In year or two bittorrent will probably end up in a similar position, that's the cycle. It's not that filesharing is new, it's that the mainstream is always way behind. But when they catch up, it's time to move on to the next thing.

    There'll always be people who "know about this stuff" and then the rest of the world who find out later and end up ruining it. But by then the first group has already moved on to the next big thing.

    N
     
  14. seoagent

    seoagent Newbie

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    Yes, I can see where maybe you would sell what you can, then even file share the e-book yourself. But something I think might help would be to use it to foster a website link to your main author website. Then even years later when there are several thousands of copies of the e-book, even new people to the web will read it like it was made yesterday. Then they would come to your website via the links in the e-book and perhaps buy something new.

    Ehat I am thinking about here Lynn is it would be profitable to use a site like Cafe, and have your other books only distributed through Amazon. There are plenty of founded affiliates through the Amazon Feeds Network. You could set it up to have print on demand and sell paperbacks and hard copies only of your most sought after or highest quality work.

    What I am learning is there is no way to be absolute when it comes to digital piracy, However, using an e-book as a viral method via file sharing and CB could set you up nicely.

    The lesson learned here is the harder you make something to pirate, the less likely it is going to be ripped off. An good example would be a 450 page hard covered book. Yes you can copy it after some three to four hours and at an expense of around $24. Then you could put all those pages in a document feeder on a scanner and let it sit overnight. Then you could zip and share it online. But why?

    If this were the case, I would love to download all those very expensive and valuable university books, that they paid over half a million dollars to make. They cost so much, because the book publishers have to pay some 30 professors and consultants to cough over real life and very useful information

    I met such people at Hill McGraw. It takes some two years to put together those kind of books. But back to our discussion Lynn. It would be something worth pursuing for an online author:

    CB for the initial offer. Links to other offers only available through hard copies ordered through Cafe Publishing via the Amazon Affiliate Network. Same goes for CDs and DVDs Nick if you're still reading.;) What does evey one think about that idea. Will it at least slow down the enthusiasm of file sharers?:confused:
     
  15. seoagent

    seoagent Newbie

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    Post secondary Schooling helps. Or at least reading most of the books in the prison library.:eek::D Doing both is best. That way you won't have a biased opinion in life.:)
     
  16. seoagent

    seoagent Newbie

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    Wow! essential_clix your whole post is worth repeating. When the truth hurts, I believe another slap on the other side of my head helps me really learn these lessons for life.:eek:

    From what you said, digital author, artists and code writers need to understand if it's digital it will eventually become lost proprietary rights. But until that day, sell high and wide as far as you can, as fast as you can. So that when the day of file sharing nears, they will not be crying in their drinks.

    And I understand you are saying, as a digital producer, take note from the film industry. They keep kicking out new movies good or bad. They try to please and sell as much as they can. But realize the full bloom of even a blockbuster looses it's luster within three weeks time to a warm glow. To which they order their Blue Ray Disc presses to start running for the next release date.

    And somewhere down the line in about a year, they become discounted movies in Blockbusters checkout bin for the last thrill. And so essential_clix I'll focus my business model on the same: "Turn 'em and burn em.!" But only put out good quality products with the best digital and physical defenses, so I gain a reputation worthy of being file shared. Over time, I can prosper.:)
     
  17. seoagent

    seoagent Newbie

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    Well, where to begin with you nicho? You came to the conclusion of my marketing experience, based upon an open conversation of ideas into protecting digital authors and artists? Can you tell me what the numbers are for the Super 7 this coming Friday? I want to put more investment in your unique yet gifted and talented foresight, but I seem to be unable to raise any capital for your B.S. Prospects Inc IPO right now.:p

    So if you could just tell me what the numbers will be, I'm sure I'll have enough to invest with and possibly attract some other investors who can hand you over a few bars of soap to wash the ignorance out of your mouth. In the meantime, your Mother would like you to call her and wonders why you are still angry at Dad?:rolleyes:
     
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  18. seoagent

    seoagent Newbie

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    Isn't that the truth RightStart. Even the free bonus items I get in my purchases I never really look at. There is just so much software and information products now, developers are giving away some of it just to entice others to buy their other products.

    And you're right, those that copy will never buy. Not for a while anyways. So from what you are saying, these people are never going to be buyers and therefore are never going to be part of the equation. I like that. For some they can sleep better now from what you have said.

    I wonder if that is why some sites allow you to download their products and simply ask for a donation? Maybe they already know what you do and decided it is best to accept it as a market that file shares is not the monetary market in the first place.

    Sure we can place some barriers in front, and understand the shelf life will be short. And if we go out of our way to sell high and wide, and move on, just like the film and music industries, we can prosper.:)

    And now we know why Microsoft is still alive and well. Thanks Bill.:D;)

    That's great RightStart. This is exactly what essential_clix was saying. Rather than go out and simply attempt to sell your new information product on it's own merits, you could also sell it as part of a much larger appeal of an ongoing membership site.

    This way, not only does the new product sell, but really hits home the benefits of owning you past products as well. A prime example I am seeing this last week was a template club for Joomla Templates. At first I thought it was too rich, but then seeing that I could get all the past templates as well as the next years worth really sold me and I signed up.

    The quality was there as you and essential_clix both iterated. And the expectation of even better products to come put me over the edge and I was sold. To date the website is one of the most successful Joomla Template Clubs out there with some 50,000 customers. Not bad for about six web designers who punch out one template together each month. That's about $250,000 a year between them. Works out to $40,000 a year each for making two templates each year for each designer. For web design? Where do I sign up for that one?:eek:

    You are my new inspiration! :)Thanks RightStart and to essential_clix for hitting this one home!:D
     
  19. seoagent

    seoagent Newbie

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    Thanks for pointing out some really great historical habits of our human nature. LOL.:D It's true, I only sometimes file share some new music, but far from what I used to do five years ago. The same with photos. When I firts hit the web I was there for two days on dial up. I printed them on a color printer. Looked at them and threw them away.

    It was boring. It had no use for me. Today, anyone can go to Flikr and get great photos even for calendars or backgrounds on a PC. But whose has time? YouTube Videos? Weeks go by before I even look at one. Why? Because it's free all the time.

    That brings me to another good point. This forum could have a "Membership Sale" which allows unfettered access to sections that post the latest links to "new" files on offshore servers. This is one more way to monetize this site. I think this was mentioned and could have been one of the reasons for "main streaming" this website.

    For myself, it has been very educational. I have totally sponged the minds of the seasoned greats here concerning digital product distribution and monetization methods. It really has been a great journey in such a short period of time.

    And to conclude your comment apekillape, about using different methods today. How long would it have taken me to learn what I did in just one week at this forum if I had to physically travel by horse or even car?

    The web serves and destroys all at the same time. Truly a reflection of our times. "I choose good over evil. And so I shall perish only on earth.":AR15firin
     
  20. artswerdstone

    artswerdstone Power Member

    Joined:
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    The web... The web doesn't do by itself anything. The web is just another playground. A digital universe. It's the web users who do everything, either they are aware about this, or not. There are game designers, players, and pieces on the table. And there are some lurkers. The web is just a virtual space. It depends on you, web user, whether you play your game or let others play with you.

    Good over evil? The funniest trap of mankind. Every human being is good by its nature and wants to do good. And here is the trap. Things by themselves are neither good nor bad. It's each man who evaluates a thing, an action or a state of being as good or bad. But this evaluation is very subjective. What is bad for the lamb is eventually very good for the wolf.

    Instead of considering something good or bad, wright or wrong, better try to evaluate that thing relative to something else. To eat is better, then to starve. To be alive is better than to be eaten. Evaluation is a matter of individual viewpoint and consideration.

    Consumers desire to get more for less to give. Salesmen desire also more for less.
    And from here the game starts. That who faster understands the other wins.

    Starting a conversation is already a good starting point.

    Get the other side's viewpoint and make your strategy.

    And play, don't stay!

    Life is not easy, but it may be full of fun!