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How to Turn PPC to CPA Campaigns Consistently Profitable

Discussion in 'CPA' started by redtide1969, Feb 17, 2011.

  1. redtide1969

    redtide1969 BANNED BANNED Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    Hey all,

    I had typed out a long email to a friend tonight explaining how I turn my PPC campaigns consistently profitable and figured I'd paste it here for any of the newer members to soak in if they so wish...

    This email doesn't cover niche and offer selection so if you can't do that I suggest quietly stepping away from PPC in general.




    Hey man, no problem.

    Some of this you may be aware of but because I don't know where you're at with PPC knowledge I'll try to hit on things that I think will help the most.

    First thing is that PPC networks are all setup with default campaign and adgroup settings that are made to feed their pockets and not yours. I'll try to dig up a session I did on messenger that explains all of the default settings I change for every campaign. In the meantime read this post I had made that explains how I manage my campaigns http://www.blackhatworld.com/blackhat-seo/general-ppc-discussion/226618-making-killing-ppc.html

    To dig deeper into what I was explaining there, I run two PPC accounts at all times with any of my campaigns that are in their initial 3 phases of optimization, and the other account is only used for my already optimized campaigns that have high CTR's, quality scores, etc.

    This secondary account will eventually allow you to be paying pennies on the dollar for clicks on your keywords that may have initially been costing you $3-$5+ a click in the original account.

    Obviously you're stowing away the golden KW's to only be run in the clean secondary account and continuing to optimize down the original campaign that will always inevitably have a weak CTR (click through rate), low QS (quality score), and lack of relevancy from having so many KW's, in so many adgroups, all carrying high impressions. This means you are paying up the ass for the long term if you keep your campaign in that accout.

    A huge key part is what I call the triangle of relevancy and it's really important to optimizing down a campaign that was initially losing money, then breaking even, and then within a few weeks of losing money starts turning solid, long term profit.

    The triangle is the relevancy between your KW's - ad title/adcopy - and LP copy/keywords and is a main factor in how much you'll be paying per click. You probably know how important everyone sais this relevancy triangle is with PPC, and it's totally true. My main priority is getting my winning or at least "promising" keywords into that secondary account as soon as possible where I can keep my adgroups tight and concise with just 2-3 closely related KW's per adgroup - with two already optimized ads per group that are carrying the exact keyword as the title.


    Let me do a timeline:

    Initial testing phase...

    Start campaign with at least 100-300 KW's or more depending on your budget going in.

    Start it with as many adgroups as needed but always trying to keep each adgroup with no more than 50 KW's per adgroup for QS and relevancy.

    Sort all KW's into groups that are as relevant to each other as possible.

    I start all campaigns running exact, phrase and broad match (one thing I've learned is you never know which match type will turn into a golden KW.)

    Two ads per adgroup to split test CTR's and CPC's.


    2-4 weeks later...

    2nd phase

    Decide which KW's are worth raising your bids on and keeping (based on which are getting impressions/clicks and have converted more than once or twice). Delete or pause non-performers but remember, lowering or raising your bid for different ad positions can and will turn a non converting KW into a golden KW so it's somthing to play with before getting rid of a good, targeted KW or its match types.

    Add negative KW's in the PPC account based on broad and phrase match KW's that trigger your ads for non-converting terms. For me, I try not to send more than 10 clicks at a KW without a conversion before I play with my ad position. If a KW hasn't converted within another 10 clicks after playing with bid price, it's gone.

    Continue split testing ads obviously to keep your CTR rising.

    If I have had to bid really high to get the top spots I DON'T lower my bids in most cases. To dominate your highest converting ad positions it's best to let the PPC network's QS lower you actual CPC's rather than trying to keep lowering your bid in an attempt to get cheaper clicks.. The actual clicks costs will come way down to pennies on the dollar but it just takes some time. Once done, a competitor would have to bid outragously high to ever beat you for that ad position (for example position #1 while bidding $6 but actually paying $0.78 per click based on relevance) so having the balls to initially bid that high basically "locks in" your converting position so it's too costly for competitors to try and outbid you.

    Last step of phase 2 (there's more but I'm trying to run through this) is I pause or delete the original campaign and recreate it with only my remaining "promising" KW's and optimized ads (at this point I'm still in the first PPC account).

    Keep your new version of the campaign and adgroups with no more than 15 KW's per adgroup at this point. The bottom line is, the smaller the adgroup, the higher the relevancy and QS and the lower you pay per click (when initially starting with 1000's of KW's like I tend to do, it's not realistic to be able to create and manage that many adgroups).


    2-6 weeks later...

    Phase 3 = repeat phase 2 and keep the campaign in the initial PPC account.


    2-6 weeks later...

    Move the remaining "golden nugget KW's" to the secondary PPC account and either create a seperate adgroup for each keyword (gives you the most relevance possible and is the way I do it,) or put no more than 3-5 KW's per adgroup if the KW"s are really close variations of each other.


    1 month later...

    Break the campaign down one last time by pausing or deleting the old version of the campaign and recreating it this last time with seperate adgroups for all of your various KW "match types". So create a seperate adgroup for the KW's exact match variaton, phrase match and broad match variations.


    Last phase...

    Make serious bank with low CPC's, high QS's and high ROI ;)

    You basically can just swap offers to split test conversion rates and the campaign can be set and forget, depending on how hard you want to work on building it out. You can tell that I kind of look at PPC like a miner panning for gold, it is like hunting gold in that it's a constant weeding down process of getting rid of the black sand (high click/high cost/low conversion KW's) until you're left with a handful of nuggets (high click volume/low cost per click/high conversion rate KW's).

    You get there by slowly breaking down the campaign's KW/adgroup structure, making your adgroups more tightly focused each time, so that as time goes on you're suddenly paying $130 a day in adspend per campaign for $1200, $1600, $900 lead days consistently. Pick the right payout offers and you're set.

    I also always start with a high budget that I'm prepared to burn through while collecting my stats (impressions vs clicks vs conversions) in P202 on my initial 100's or 1000's of KW's I start testing with. Once you're down to just a handful of low cost, high converting KW's...you're gold.

    K man, hope some of this helps
     
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    Last edited: Feb 17, 2011
  2. teeniegenie

    teeniegenie Supreme Member

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    Great info. Plus rep and thanks given.

    OP: how much time per day do you spend optimizing your different PPC campaigns? How many campaigns do you have running at once on average? Also, I assume you are using these same techniques for media buys, correct?

    For anyone who cares, I believe this is the particular post the OP is referring to inside the thread he links to above:

    http://www.blackhatworld.com/blackh...on/226618-making-killing-ppc.html#post2014957
     
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    Last edited: Feb 17, 2011
  3. redtide1969

    redtide1969 BANNED BANNED Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    Thanks for the +rep and covering me on the link geenie,

    Well, I'm a total workaholic so most days I'm on 18 hours a day working on my campaigns. With that said though, the beauty of PPC is that the already optimized campaign's let me step away and go riding, hit the beach or w/e floats my boat that day and they're still there making the same money.

    Like you mentioned, the reason I'm on most days for 18 hours is because I'm constantly branching my campaigns (always start with PPC) to other promotion methods like MediaBuys, PPV and a lot of outsourcing SEO. I find one of the biggest parts of a campaign's long term success stems from the LP's ability to build trust in the consumer and with that, a campaign will tend to do well with most (but not all) other methods of driving traffic.
     
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  4. eniviD

    eniviD Junior Member

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    Redtide, I have a few questions
    I was wondering, what's your idea of a good budget that would suffice to do exactly what you said above? & do domain names for the landing page & having the "golden keywords" on the landing page make a huge difference in the amount of profit you see?
     
  5. redtide1969

    redtide1969 BANNED BANNED Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    Well, it depends on the offer's payout that you're promoting. If the payout is $25 I'de have already done my homework and know that it's going to be a profitable niche, so I'de go in with whatever budget it takes to have clicks coming in. Niche selection is the most important part obviously, so once it's done and using a $25 offer payout as an example, I'de go in with at least a $200-$300 budget based on that payout.

    The way I explained how I optimize down my campaigns can be recreated with any budget level, based on how many KW's you want to start the campaign with and what the offer payout is.

    As far as using your golden KW's in your LP, it's kind of a catch-22 in that you don't want to keyword stuff your LP with your golden KW's, or any smart marketers would be able to recongnize and start bidding on them themseleves. At the same time you want them in your LP copy to complete the triangle of relevance needed at your PPC network. Use your golden KW's in such a way when you have your LP content written that the KW's blend in naturally enough to where they aren't noticeable.

    As far as helping conversion rates, absolutely.
     
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  6. boo blizzi

    boo blizzi Regular Member

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    thanx for the insightful post...i know u say u start with a $2-300 budget...is that a day or for the whole period of testing...and if its not for a day...what would u recommend as a daily budget?...also what positions do u try to aim for bid-wise?...do u go for the top 1-3 spots or the 4-8 spots?
     
  7. eniviD

    eniviD Junior Member

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    Thanks RedTide, I had never even heard about this triangle until I read this thread.
    I really appreciate the info.You've cleared up a lot of questions that otherwise I would have to have learned the hard way. I have another question but I don't want to seem annoying, it's okay if you don't want to answer all of my questions. But what I'm wondering now is how much $ you need to run a campaign like this? & would it be a bad idea to try to optimize a campaign completely in a week, ex. I have keywords that aren't converting the first day of testing, I would just throw them out & do the same the next day for seven days until I had nothing but converting keywords? or is this a bad idea?
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2011
  8. bigg_capp

    bigg_capp Jr. VIP Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    Redtide - Posts like this are the entire reason I come here everyday. People charge $29.95 for information 1/2 as good as this.

    This makes reading through all the bullshit posts, possible scams, false profit claims, and newbie crap well worth it.

    Thanks bro
    -Capp
     
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  9. bigg_capp

    bigg_capp Jr. VIP Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    Redtide - I do have one quick question - do you ever bother with CPA offers that pay $1.00 or $2.00 or do you just go big for the $40 pay outs?
     
  10. gamingneeds

    gamingneeds Regular Member

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    I'm assuming this is targeted at AdWords since Bing/Yahoo don't seem to have many QS issues which would allow you to pretty much go through all phases in a single account?
     
  11. redtide1969

    redtide1969 BANNED BANNED Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    That's for the initial testing phase before I break the campaign down for the 2nd phase and is also before I expect to be breaking even or pulling profit. I personally just started a new campaign and ended up spending $2,300 on it in it's first week of testing, not because I had to but because 1) I already knew it was going to be a profitable niche, and 2) I started the campaign with 1,700 KW's to test, and 3) I didn't want to screw around and have the initial testing phase take too long.

    As far as a daily budget, I can't answer that because I have no idea how healthy your bank acount is or how many KW's you plan to start out the campaign with.





    No sweat, I don't mind answering people's questions as long as they aren't asking things that would turn them into my direct competition, if they do ask things like that I just won't answer lol.

    To answer your question, you can do that but then you'de be getting rid of possible golden KW's before giving them a fair shake. It's very seldom that I just throw up a small group of KW's and end up with any excellent ones that stand out. It's during the optimization phases that I explained (plus adjusting bid prices for different ad positions) that certain KW's will tend to stand out as golden KW's.

    As far as budget amount needed to optimize down a campaign like this, like I said, this optimization structure that I spelled out can be recreated with any budget.

    Say you're only starting with 20 total KW's and can't afford to start a campaign with 100's or 1,000's, you'll still benefit with lower click costs and higher CTR's by breaking down the campaign this way, just shorten up the amount of time between recreating the campaign based on how many KW's you're starting out with.





    No problem man, thanks for the compliment btw.

    Not with PPC, I would only run email/zip submits with SEO and other free traffic sources. PPV also works because the views can be had so cheap. If you do your niche research well enough you may be able to find some niches with corresponding offers where you can get the clicks cheap enough for PPC, but most niches with email/zip offers at CPA networks are too competitive and costly to get dirt cheap PPC clicks on.

    With the low payout of those kind of offers you'de be sunk running PPC most of the time.



    Incorrect...Bing/YSM actually models their QS algorithm after Adwords but it's just that they don't show the advertiser a physical QS or Quality Index number like Adwords does currently, or like YSM did before the MSN/YSM merger.

    What I explained that I do with my optimization structure is the same with all 3 majors.
     
  12. xenter

    xenter Regular Member

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    Great info!

    Question, do you send the traffic to the actual offer right away? Or do you send them to a landing page that you have created? If it is the latter, then what are somethings to do to make a good converting landing page?
     
  13. gamingneeds

    gamingneeds Regular Member

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    Thats interesting. I can usually get a really high rating for my Bing campaigns and I don't have to do all the things you mentioned above. It seems the longer I run the campaign the lower the CPC too... and thats tossing my keywords into one adgroup with a generic ad copy. :)
     
  14. eniviD

    eniviD Junior Member

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    Thanks again for the response RedTide,
    You've really helped me out a lot.
    I've done some more research, & I think I'm pretty close to launching my first campaign.
    Do you think it'd be okay to use a landing page with google or yahoo/msn, or will I be a lot better off creating a site with some content? If you do think it'd be okay, how many landing pages would you recommend for one campaign? Also do tools like ppc bully really work? & you said you use two accounts for each advertiser, do you take any cautious measures when you do this, or do you just do everything from the same i.p? Sorry for all the questions, I know you said you don't mind but still. I'm just trying to get as much info as possible in hopes that my first ppc campaign will be a major success of some sort, even if I'm only making $5 a day.
     
  15. redtide1969

    redtide1969 BANNED BANNED Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    I answered that in the link I supplied in my OP. I direct link for the first 40 or so clicks most of the time but it depends on how much homework I've done on the niche beforehand and how confident I am that building an LP right from the start is the way to go for that particular campaign.

    I'll tell you this, conversion rates are on avg. 70% higher in the niches I have campaigns in once I've started running an LP. Direct linking is best used for just initially testing an offer IMO.





    You can be getting your clicks cheaper than you are by breaking down your adgroup structures. The point of going into a secondary account is because the networks base your QS and CPC partly on your account's overall CTR. When you've been running campaigns where KW's are just thrown into unrelated adgroups, or have tested a bunch of direct linking campaigns and the overall account CTR is low, you're paying more for the long term with every click you generate.

    And yeah, although YSM/MSN base their QS algorithm off of Google's, they've never been as strict about things like LP QS and shit like Goog has, especially recently. ;)





    1) For the long term building out of the campaign it's best to build a site. For just quick PPC money you can get by with just an LP with MSN/YSM as they're less strict. To make quick PPC money with Goog you'de want to build out at least a 6-7 page site, they're more strict.

    2) Only you can answer that. I'll put it this way, once I have my campaign optimized down to just a handful of remaining KW's and in the secondary account, I have every single KW pointing to a seperate LP for that KW. To clarify, I'm using the same LP (pictures, buttons, graphics and header) but the actual content is all written around each individual KW. (Like I said though, don't KW stuff).

    It's all of these sorts of relevancy changes (optimization) that allow you to be paying pennies on the dollar per click in order to dominate competitve (ie: expensive) niches.


    3) Yes


    4) YSM/MSN allow you to have multiple accounts, Goog doesn't.


    Good luck with your first campaign but you have to go into it realistically. The success I've been able to have with my campaigns never came right from the start or when I first threw KW's at an offer/niche. Success (meaning high ROI) comes from the optimization process I described in my OP.
     
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  16. $ThisIsTheLife$

    $ThisIsTheLife$ BANNED BANNED

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    Great info this has alot of potential with a few tweaks

    Good Job!
     
  17. eniviD

    eniviD Junior Member

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    Okay thanks again,
    You've been more then phenomenal RedTide.
    I've just got to work on my first campaign.
    I'm using facebook, I plan to move on to other platforms later
    I'm taking a lot of risk & building a landing page from the start, an expensive one &
    getting a nice server to host prosper on, I'm also incorporating aweber into my LP.
    In total I'm probably going to end up spending around $600 on this campaign.
    I'll let you know how it goes. At least if I lose a lot, I'll learn alot.
     
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  18. hateandbreak

    hateandbreak Supreme Member

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    Thanks very much! + Rep. I want to get in this as Soon as i rack up some spending money! Maybe you can be my Personal coach :p I know it won't be free but who cares
     
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  19. abernok

    abernok Regular Member

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    Thank you buddy but i need more source about quality score and how to do good quality score. Guys can you help me about it


    And How do you open 2 account in adwords ?
     
  20. BabySam

    BabySam Newbie

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    Quality score is basically how google grades you on your relevency to your advertising market judging by over all ctr in ad groups, the better your campaigns do the higher your score, the lower your cpc atleast thats how it was when I was literally torturing everyone in 07 paying 30cents for $2 and $3.00 KW's Im back hopefully google hasnt changed it too much.

    This also is the reason why for the seperate account hes kinda cheating the curve atleast in reference to googles equal playing field settup. Skipping A and B and jumping straight into C-ash pulling campaigns, so from the jump he'll have a quality score that never drops or maybe just doing an inclining flutter like the stock market.

    To my knowledge if I'm correct you would require a seperate bank account and possibly email I'd presume if you're persuing another adwords account.

    Dude Im also a work aholic it drove my girl friend bat sh*t sometimes to set up my laptop at pizza hut to check things. So to put an end to that Google finally answered prayors and now I have my google powered phone to do it all and just give me notifications everytime something happens, look into it bro its well worth it

    Im also interested in the cpa's you are connected with in your sig, if you can get me in I'd appreciate it thanks