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GRRRR!!! No Tables In DreamWeaver CS4!!!

Discussion in 'BlackHat Lounge' started by stevesdata, Apr 9, 2009.

  1. stevesdata

    stevesdata Regular Member

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    I am feeling really p1ssed off.

    Spent ages refreshing my memory and relearning a tonne of Ad0be CS stuff to find that they have decided to remove layout tables in CS4 because of probs with accessibility / ppl with disabilities etc.

    This has screwed me a bit as 99% of my tutorials all use tables. The weird thing is I still thought that CSS layouts were dodgy with a lot of older browsers and tables were much better for SEO?

    How are ppl getting around this I have spent ages designing stuff in Photoshop to find that its difficult to use as a tracing method with CSS. Everything I have read also recommends not using tracing images and to use vague mock ups.

    Aparently you can chop up in Fireworks and export as Images & HTML, then tweak to get some quite good results with the options menu. But then DreamWeaver is a PITA because it wants you to primarily work with the CSS.

    A bit sh1tty IMHO. Would be very interested in what people have done to adapt / tips for exporting in Fireworks. I only used this for the first time the other day lol.

    Is it worth rolling back for this project to CS3 or should I bite the bullet and learn as it will help me long term? My specific design is a PITA and too complex for standard CSS formatting. Is it poss to create major sections in CSS then draw in AP Divs as an alternative to nested tables?

    I am having to do a major portfolio project as part of my degree and this is causing a big delay GRRRR!

    :)
     
  2. ukescuba

    ukescuba Jr. VIP Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    thats crazy - they are not the authority on what you can and cant do when it comes to doing code...

    you absolutely sure tables arent there? - although i would recommend CSS for most things theres times when a table is just frigging easier to implement...

    css is much better for SEO than tables, especially if your using embedded tables, css would be a much better solution

    in my early days i always used to slice up an image and position it in a table, but nowadays i do tend to position everything using div layers and css, you do have much better control over your positioning

    if you already using tables in your project, and CS4 doesnt have table support your probably going to have to revert back to CS3 - but i would be really surprised if CS4 has cut out tables...
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2009
  3. stevesdata

    stevesdata Regular Member

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    I couldnt believe it either!

    Code:
    http://help.adobe.com/en_US/Dreamweaver/10.0_Using/WScbb6b82af5544594822510a94ae8d65-7d9fa.html
    Code:
    http://blogs.adobe.com/dreamweaver/2008/12/looking_for_layout_mode.html
    [Second link includes a load of p1ssed of comments on Ad0be blog].

    Everything I have been reading recommends tables.

    To put tables in you need to slice up in Fireworks then import into DreamWeaver as images and html then select the way it handles tables in options.

    It handles existing tables when you open html files but will not let you add layout tables. I have specifically built the site with the methods I learnt in mind :(

    In CS4 all the layout buttons are greyed out. It will not let you draw new ones.

    EDIT: I hope this thread helps some ppl as if you rely on tables do not install CS4.

    :(
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2009
  4. ukescuba

    ukescuba Jr. VIP Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    thats fucked up - it wouldnt have hurt to keep that feature in place - i certainly wont be upgrading my DW CS3 any time soon...

    the argument for depreciating it is BS, they say its a permanent depreciation too - if thats the case then i would say the same about their loyal users and profit margins too....
     
  5. jimbobo2779

    jimbobo2779 Jr. VIP Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    I wouldn't say that tables as the main layout is a better option than CSS, in fact it is downright horrible way to layout your copy. Table are kinda easier to whip up a site in no time but for real ease of laying stuff out css is the way to go.

    Also I would like to ask where you got the impression that tables were better for SEO? If you compare the sizes of an html file that uses tables as the layout against a css based page you will see they can be upto 4x lighter ( the css variant)

    It is such a stupid idea for adobe to leave this out in all honesty but as I haven't used a table for a layout in about 3 years it doesn't bothing me personally in the slightest.

    Jim
     
  6. Sippy79

    Sippy79 Junior Member

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    Tables are still there as they are a fundamential part of the W3C standards. How do you get the mind that they are removed? I can find tons of tutorials how to use tables in CS4.
     
  7. Echnaton

    Echnaton Newbie

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    I love to go with CSS .. but ... there are also some problems where tables are THE solution. See the workarounds for center content vertical & horizontal.

    I even read somewhere that the webdesign gurus see a comeback of table-layouts as long as CSS has this problems. It's interesting that DreamWeaver is not as current as the discussion on this topic ...

    ciao

    Echnaton
     
  8. stevesdata

    stevesdata Regular Member

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    My understanding (which may be wrong) is that the search engines like tables as they are more compatible with older browsers which a LOT more ppl run than many may think.

    The annoying thing is I designed my site in mind for tables.

    I would otherwise be wanting to use CSS anyways. I think its generally better. I was taught web design at uni which was all tables a few years back.

    :)
     
  9. oldenstylehats

    oldenstylehats Elite Member Premium Member

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    It's not CSS that has issues, it is that some browsers don't following standards because their designers think they dictate the rules. Also, the rules of the semantic web, rules that Google claims to abide by, would dictate that only tabular data should be stored in tables. I have seen the positive effects on SERP's that switching a site from a table-based layout to a "proper" CSS-based design can have and it is significant.

    There is nothing a table can do that can't be done with CSS; you'll just have to compensate for Microsoft's stubborn refusal to join the pack.
     
  10. dealhunter

    dealhunter Regular Member

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    You can get to tables, go to instert at the top then table :)