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Black Hat and Illegal, Someone draw the line!

Discussion in 'BlackHat Lounge' started by fazee, Feb 13, 2009.

  1. fazee

    fazee BANNED BANNED

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    Hey guys,

    I ve been on this forum for a while, i have learned a lot!

    But one thing i never manged to do, and i think many newbies wont be able to do is draw the line between black hat and illegal.

    So i guess we can leave that to the senior members here, and all other guys who know the law!

    Lets use some examples:

    Cookie Stuffin: Certainly illegal cos the dude who owns DP got fried!

    fooling people into signing up on your offers: black hat, noway you could get arrested for tht.

    Making money by torrents: no idea!

    There is a ton of things that come in the no idea category!

    Please someone draw the line!

    Thnx
     
  2. therat

    therat Regular Member

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    cs isn't illegal - its still in litigation and so long as you don't do it for massive figures they wont come after you.

    All the obvious shit is illegal and is stated in the please read me threads like phising, stealing identities, not paying taxes

    Things that is against the TOS of co's can get you banned but not sued
     
  3. aмillionaírе

    aмillionaírе Jr. VIP Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    That's your job, review the laws of your country and keep your business practices at whichever level you wish to. The only discussable laws here are the forum rules, there's simply no way to compile a workable rulebook for a diversified community that expands and consists of a global member body. The forum rules complies with American laws, for example. Besides that, you're liable for whatever you publish here unless endorsed by the site owner himself.
     
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  4. Geetfaux

    Geetfaux Super Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Well said, Sir.
     
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  5. 33mo23

    33mo23 Newbie

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    I thought the guys from DP were getting SUED in a civil court.. not prosecuted in a criminal court? Did I miss some headline news here? Getting sued is not the same as being prosecuted by a district attorney.
     
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  6. CyberDilemma

    CyberDilemma Regular Member

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    Correction: Breaking a TOS certainly CAN get you sued but most companies will not pursue it unless it is financially feasible or they want to make an example out of someone.

    Simply breaking a TOS CANNOT get you arrested, since it is considered a civil tort unless you ALSO break a law in the act of doing so (e.g. theft, wire fraud, RICO, etc.) Since the internet is somewhat analogous to the wild west, most cyber-crimes go unpunished unless the perpetrator has harmed a bunch of people and/or profited greatly from the crime.
     
  7. leonidt

    leonidt Regular Member

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    What Caesar said. You can't "draw the line" because the world does not run on one set of laws. For example, spam is illegal in the US but not in Russia.

    I also agree with 33mo23. I think a lot of people don't understand the difference between getting sued and getting charged with a crime.
     
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  8. Grizzy

    Grizzy Senior Member

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    Yes, BH hacking is illegal. BH marketing is bannable under most companies TOS, but certainly not illegal in US/CA regarding most of the methods i've seen here. People here aren't promoting phising or anything fraudulent here. Same goes for BH SEO, I dont see how that can be illegal... lol don't tase me big g!
     
  9. leonidt

    leonidt Regular Member

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    Neither viruses nor spamming are recognized as a crime in the Russian Federation. Like I said, this is why we can't "draw the line."

    As far as the term "blackhat", IMO blackhat = violating the TOS of the company that pays you. Whether or not what you do is illegal will depend on many things, such as your local laws, your moral standards and beliefs, your willingness to risk legal repercussions, etc.

    That being said, this forum abides by USA laws, hence BHW.com's TOS are geared as such.
     
  10. swipetek

    swipetek Registered Member

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    Most of the methods people use here are not really blackhat, but more along the lines of greyhat. Most don't really know the difference.
     
  11. aмillionaírе

    aмillionaírе Jr. VIP Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    I'm also sure this fear-mongering is probably discouraging newbies from practicing the various methods taught and discussed here. I can only add this, you can twist any scenerio or situation and put it under the scrutiny of legal terminology, but from realistic perspectives it's impractical, couple that with the point swipetek made above me, most people proposing these ideas do not understand the cultural, symbolical, and or metaphorical implications of the terminologies used in this industry, like someone foreign to English taking English idioms literally and escalating the discussion, eventually requiring rational members to correct their misunderstanding(s).
     
  12. jpmido

    jpmido Newbie

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    Personally, I think there is a pretty clear line, regardless of which country you live in. I understand that some things are illegal in some places and not in others, but to me "blackhat" marketing (at least the marketing aspect) is more about being "sneaky" or finding ways to exploit site's TOS, etc. to make more money. And, maybe some of that is technically illegal - but in the scheme of things it is very minor.

    Maybe blackhat marketing is really more of a "gray" hat thing. But then, we need to change the whole name of this forum.

    Once you move in to hacking and other real blackhat stuff, now I think you are on the "illegal" side of things.

    I draw the line at going out and committing real crimes - things like theft, or worse. (I know, I know, stealing links and clicks is theft too - but this is not what I mean). I mean things like stealing from your neighbors (like the idiot the other day who asked advice on how to steal his neighbor's internet signal - next will be questions about the best way to commit ID theft...). When you hurt someone else, steal from them or harm them - these are real crimes.

    Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
     
  13. dloader22

    dloader22 Junior Member

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    I wanted to add about lawsuits, I've looked into this matter heavily and thought some might find this helpful. Any company can sue you for any reason however they most likely wont because it costs them lots of money and to get anything from you they have to prove that you directly caused them major loses. This is why radio announcers can talk shit about any brand name and not get sued because the brand would have to prove that the radio directly made them lose money which is kinda of impossible.

    So a company will generally sue you only if they can directly prove that you have costed them lots and lots of money. And even if they win the lawsuit unless you are a millionaire already they really can't get much from you other than small monthly payments. Now if you are doing business under an LLC in the US then they can't really come after your own possessions or income, they can only go after your LLC. This is why it's always smart to do business as an LLC because of such liability matters. Hope this helps.
     
  14. leonidt

    leonidt Regular Member

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    When you steal from affiliate companies by CSing, sending bad traffic, etc, you're hurting them. You fuck ebay, it hurts ebay, which in turn hurts it's employees and users when ebay increases it's fees and decreases it's salaries. It also hurts the economy, and all kinds of other shit.

    But hey, if you need to tell yourself something to sleep better at night...

    Something being illegal does not immediately make it wrong, and something being legal does not immediately make it right. It's all about how far you're willing to go. ;)
     
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  15. Geetfaux

    Geetfaux Super Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I read the court documents from the Hogan et al case recently & they are getting sued for wirefraud & rico among other things so i'm a little confused, if they are getting sued in a civil court for defrauding ebay & also being accused of committing wire fraud & rico among other things I don't get it?
     
  16. Tom

    Tom Regular Member

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    It's simple really.

    Black Hat = Breaking (or simply bending) the rules that other individuals or companies wish to have followed.

    Illegal = Breaking the law.
     
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  17. workingwhileworking

    workingwhileworking Junior Member

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    what makes something illegal?


    The fact that you got caught doing it.
     
  18. fazee

    fazee BANNED BANNED

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    Hey Guys,

    Well firstly thanks for all the replies,

    Many of you have differing point of views,

    Some of you say Black Hat is illegal: correction, read the rules of the forum and you will find out it isnt.

    Ceaser put forward a very valid point that country counts, well lets use the US as the standard cos most of the companies that we will be exploiting are based in the US.

    Tommy has given one of the best answers yet! That really does help draw the line.
    Would that mean the money earned is stolen? Or Just unethical Business?

    I aint scared of any one coming after me, i dont live in the US and i am under 18, the only reason why i am asking is so that i and other people on the forum know what they are doing.
     
  19. xbox360gurl70s

    xbox360gurl70s Elite Member

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    I think the obvious is what we should follow, If it wont land you in jail then it is not serious, like banning or loss of money for your side, but if you get busted and all...then its your choice
     
  20. loclhero

    loclhero Supreme Member

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    That's a brilliant philosophy. So if I raped your mom but didn't get caught it's cool right? I mean I didn't get caught so nothing illegal was done so what's the big deal?
    Wake the fuck up
     
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