Avoiding the military

@JustUs
As I said I don't think our views are that different just that we have different perspectives and look at things from different levels. I can totally agree with what you're saying, I just think is not the complete, optimal or most accurate view. Mine isn't either. Probably if we'd chat about this for hours would turn out a pretty interesting philosophical discussion.

US doesn't help countries, just prepare the terrain. And if US goes after a country they will have it regardless if the OP had his military training or not. As I said, wars are not won by soldiers. They might be bled by soldiers but not won by them.

Finally, bottom line is, OP is the only person in the world who has a right to decide over what he does. It is irrelevant if you or his government thinks otherwise. The fact the government or anybody can force a person to do something is simply evil. It is slavery. Truly is. It is an enforcement of an idea/doctrine/law through power - that's what slavery is. If you think OP imposing over everybody in his country to surrender at once in the case of a war is a retarded idea, I don't see how you could think somebody else imposing over him is not.

About your statement regarding the universe functioning on the principle of energy theft you are simply wrong. It is not energy theft but equilibrium (energy balancing). It is something entirely different. Yes, it is "theft" in the sense one system takes energy from another but ONLY until they balance each other and reach the same level. One area of low atmospheric pressure and one of high pressure will produce wind. This wind basically gets the systems in balance so the pressure equalizes across both of them. It does not continue until unlit one has all the pressure and the other has none. An underwater explosion will form a bubble that pushes the water in a spherical shape, then when the water pressure is higher the bubble gets collapsed, then grows again, and so on until it collapses and the density law takes over. Water doesn't crush the bubble and the bubble doesn't overtake all the space of the water. I do agree with the fact that an animal/human will go and take from a weaker one his food/resources. Humans however have the ability to solve complex problems and get along. Wars might have happened over resources ages ago but they happened from fear or greed not because it was impossible to reach a common win-win situation. In other words, for some is easier to just steal your food than come and work the field with you. Yes it's real, I agree with that. But that's not what war is anymore. Not even in the Roman Empire era. was it just that. I'm refering to those who bleed in a war. The masses. They don't know wtf they fight for. They're fed propaganda and believe whatever they're fed with. In fact, throughout history, soldiers have suffered from famine, diseases, etc. more than from injuries from fights and certainly more than if they never went to war. A German freezing to death in Siberia I am sure was an unlikely event if WW2 never happened.
 
I am telling him the 'slave system' you find conscription to be has certain opportunities build in that give him many choice. I.e. fail physiological exams. Oh boy, wouldn't plantation slave loved to have that opportunities.

a) The fact that there are a few tricks to avoid draft does not change the nature of the draft, just like the fact that you can evade taxes does not change the fact that taxes exist.
b) I guess they would, but they were unlucky to live in an era where people thought it righteous to enslave others. See how nice it is that we are against slavery and pro-humanity?

I am talking about how the stuff you buy is made by people living in slavery. you support slavery on a daily basis.
Shouldn't we buy those things then and let those workers starve because there is no work? Nope.

I don't buy stuff from people in slavery. I assume you mean staff from China where wages are low. Well, here 's some news for you. The workers there go voluntarily to work in the factories because staying in their villages means starvation for them and their children. Buying stuff from them actually save lives.

I am saying he and people like him are willingly benefiting from a conscript army but refuse to pay back.

This is not a valid argument. It 's like saying a plantation slave that wants his freedom is willingly benefiting from the food other slaves produce, therefor he should not demand his freedom. Really?
No conscription army. Just like we pay for every other good we need, we can gladly pay for security goods as well. Nothing special here.

You couldn't be more wrong and this sentence confirms that you can not read.

Yes, I cannot read indeed. Actually, I have a few conscript slaves here reading your posts to me and taking notes as I build the responses in my mind and dictating to them to type.

I said THE PEOPLE OF COUNTRIES won't pay for professional armies.

I.e. you. I 'll gladly pay. And even if everyone on earth thought that they deserve to profit from other people 's slaving labour, I couldn't care less. Slavery is immoral, unjust and plain simply barbaric.

I used to be a sergeant in the army. In fact, I would go back if the money was right. Hence why I believe in the point I made a sentence ago. I would love to pay max tax to maintain the standard of our army as it is today. If that means they would only fight in self defense, I would pay 10 years taxes up front. Don't put words in to my mouth.

And how exactly do you advance your desire to pay taxes for a professional army by advocating the exact opposite (draft) because it 's cheaper?

I really can't make it any simpler than this:
THE PEOPLE OF COUNTRIES will not pay enough for there to be a professional army to defend them.
Therefore a long time ago someone invented the draft.

That 's so wrong. So, so wrong. I suppose they don't bother giving you low level officers any kind of real history education, do they? Must be due to cost savings...

The mass draft was "invented" during the French revolution wars periods mainly by Napoleon. It did not have to do anything with cost saving to reduce costs. In about 10 years time, all the European armies resorted to drafting. It was a numbers game - who gets the most cannon fodder to overcome the others.

If you wish to not participate in conscription either way, do what OP is doing. Lie, run, hide or do whatever you need to do. No hard feelings. But don't make it out as something to oppress people whilst it is something to defend people.

As I said, no matter how you sugar coat it, it is forced labour. Forced labor is slavery. Your argument "you slave away but you pay for 80 years of security" is invalid in the same way as "you 'll slave on my plantation but I 'll feed you for 80 years".

With professional armies that are fully paid by taxes there needs to be an urgent reason for them to exist. Otherwise people will complain about the high taxes because they feel there is no reason for a professional army to exist.

Oh, what a disaster! For people to vote with their money and only pay for things they want! Ha, those sheep, how dare they think they can decide where to spend their own money! Preposterous :eek:
 
@JustUs
Finally, bottom line is, OP is the only person in the world who has a right to decide over what he does.

Here I completely agree with you. This is why I am not judging the poor guy and why I am presenting some things about myself. As long as the man understands that no matter what he does there will be consequences, then I am fine with whatever choice he makes. It is said that no good deed goes unpunished.

About your statement regarding the universe functioning on the principle of energy theft you are simply wrong.

Here I believe you need to study physics. Once equilibrium is reached, there is nothing more. Since the big bang the energy in the universe has been constant. There is no free ride.
 
If you study the branch of mathematics known as Game Theory, you will find that cooperation is a losing proposition. You only cooperate long enough to gain a tactical and strategic advantage. At that point, you press that advantage.

No it isn't that 's just your conclusion. And the proof is easy. Go into any city or village. People prefer to coop rather than loot each other. Why? Because it 's much much much more profitable in the long run. It 's called division of labour and it pays.
 
No it isn't that 's just your conclusion. And the proof is easy. Go into any city or village. People prefer to coop rather than loot each other. Why? Because it 's much much much more profitable in the long run. It 's called division of labour and it pays.

Do you understand what the Nash Equilibrium is, or the prisoners dilemma? Now throw in the random criminal element.

If cooperation were the winning strategy, the Iron Curtain would have never come down. Due to human nature, again greed, whether for wealth or power is what helped break up the United Soviet Socialist Union. If you look around today, you can see the same thing occurring in China. You want to speak of that haven Cuba? Force and fear is what kept control there. How about Venezuela? Look around, oil money is changing the country for the worse.

Do you understand what brought on the US issue in Afghanistan? It was not the 9-11 issues. The oil companies wanted to build a pipeline through the countries to limit the oil transport strangle hold that, I believe from fallible memory, that Russia has. The Taliban agreed, but wanted to be paid the going rate while the US controlled oil companies wanted to pay 50 percent of the going rate. Gonna have to tell you that the pipeline is being built and Afghanistan will receive 15 percent of the going rate. All courtesy of my fine American government that has the best politicians that money can buy. Think about these two things: all of the 9-11 participants/extremists were Saudi's and the US government knew the location of Bin Laudin to within 50 feet until the first missile landed because his inner group had been penetrated.

Another tidbit for you. The US may be the single greatest consumer of petroleum products, but because of the ill thought out laws of much of the world, we are also the largest shipper of refined petroleum product in the world.
 
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Do you understand what the Nash Equilibrium is, or the prisoners dilemma? Now throw in the random criminal element.

Considering I hold a degree in Math and I 've studied Game Theory in Masters level, I 'd take a wild guess that I do.

If cooperation were the winning strategy, the Iron Curtain would have never come down.

You 're making the layman mistake of simplifying reality to fit it to your model.
 
Not only will you have trouble getting a passport with a criminal record, good luck finding a country that will let you in their borders with one.

Trust me, you're 18. One year in the military will be cake for you. You'll make friends, learn things you'll use for the rest of your life, etc. It's not a bad deal.

If you were 30, I'd say find a way out, but you're not. You have no responsibilities to worry about. Any that you might have you can shirk and say "hey, the military forced me to join, what could I do? I should have gone to jail?"

It's definitely a scary prospect, joining the military. If you're technologically inclined, rather than physically, you're probably thinking you'll be a fish out of water. I can assure you, though, that your fear is way overblown and in the end will be the only thing that causes you trouble. The military is highly structured. Call whoever is in charge in your area and ask them about the program. Pretty much every aspect of your life is dictated, and no one is allowed to mess with you without suffering consequences.

Trust me, if you can't afford it, don't fight it. Just consign yourself to it, look at the positive aspects, and in a year it'll be over. You're only 18. When you are 30 you'll look back and say "wow, I can barely remember that, it was literally nothing."
 
Considering I hold a degree in Math and I 've studied Game Theory in Masters level, I 'd take a wild guess that I do.



You 're making the layman mistake of simplifying reality to fit it to your model.

Am I making a mistake? I will put my Masters in Computer Science up against your Masters in Math. Computer Science is applied Mathematics.

BTW: it is Mathematics and not math.

Try not to be dense. I actually like you.
 
Am I making a mistake? I will put my Masters in Computer Science up against your Masters in Math. Computer Science is applied Mathematics.

Note how I did not say I have a Masters in Math. Game Theory is not taught in Math Masters exclusively. And that 's a lesson in noticing the details, which is a rather indispensable skill when you 're trying to model stuff.

There 's a nice joke about Mathematicians which I find it illustrates this point:

An economist, a physicist and a mathematician ride a train in Switzerland. As they pass through the green hills, there 's a lot of sheep eating. At some point, they notice a black sheep in the background.
"Aha! Exclaims the economist. There are black sheep in Switzerland"
The physicist looks him in disgust and he says: "Are you crazy? We only know there is at least 1 black sheep in Switzerland"
The mathematician looks at both of them in disgust and says: "Are you crazy? We only know there 's at least one sheep with one of his sides black in Switzerland" :D

Finally, Computer Science is not Applied Mathematics, that 's why for example MIT has a separate Applied Mathematics curriculum.

BTW: it is Mathematics and not math.

You did understand what it was, didn't you? Language is a fluid structure.
 
You did understand what it was, didn't you? Language is a fluid structure.

Your Google search for the day: https://www.google.com/search?q=masters+of+math

I have a few scans to show you from some books I keep on my shelf and refer to frequently. The title is "The Art of Computer Programming." The Author is the venerable Donald Knuth. My edition is the 1997 edition, vols 1 - 3. I have to buy the new Volume 4A. I opened each volume at random and scanned the page I opened to. I will let you argue with Knuth.

img073 is vol 1, 074 is vol 2, and 075 is vol 3.

img073.jpgimg074.jpgimg075.jpg
 
Argue with Knuth? About what? :)

I guess I 'll have to spell it out then.

Every scientific branch uses mathematics, even psychology. That doesn't make everything around you Applied Mathematics.

Obviously (for example) a CS theory of functional languages is (gulp!) full of deep math. Same as the relativity theory is full of (gulp!) deep math. Cs is cs and Physics is physics. Totally distinct things.

Applied Mathematics is also a very distinct thing - if I have to explain it in a short sentence, it would be this: "Applied Mathematics graduates are trained to be experts on the field of mathematics of the discipline they focus on and not-so-great on the actual discipline". In other words, an AM graduate who focuses on Biology, knows much less Biology than the Biologist and much more "Biology Math" than the Biologist.

I don't think I can explain it in more mundane terms, so that 'll have to do.

Edit: Now that I actually looked on the scans, next time if you want to impress anyone who actually knows more than addition, try to scan some page that 's not using elementary mathematics :) Polynomials and series? Really? :eek:
 
Argue with Knuth? About what? :)

I guess I 'll have to spell it out then.

Every scientific branch uses mathematics, even psychology. That doesn't make everything around you Applied Mathematics.

Obviously (for example) a CS theory of functional languages is (gulp!) full of deep math. Same as the relativity theory is full of (gulp!) deep math. Cs is cs and Physics is physics. Totally distinct things.

Applied Mathematics is also a very distinct thing - if I have to explain it in a short sentence, it would be this: "Applied Mathematics graduates are trained to be expert on the field of mathematics of the discipline they focus on and not-so-great on the actual discipline". In other words, an AM gratuate who focuses on Biology, knows much less Biology than the Biologist and much more "Biology Math" than the Biologist.

I don't think I can explain it in more mundane terms, so that 'll have to do.

You are waffling and justifying. I really don't have the time for it, so I will see you later.
 
There 's a nice joke about Mathematicians which I find it illustrates this point:
...

Here's the extended versions:

Version 1:
An economist, a physicist, a mathematician and a shepherd ride a train in Switzerland ...
The shepherd looks at them baffled and says: that black sheep... is a dog.

Version 2:
An economist, a physicist, a mathematician and a blackhat ride a train in Switzerland...
The blackhat gets a grin on his face and says: who gives a fuck how it is, if it makes money we can paint them all black
 
I wouldn't be a field soldier, just a recruit and then after the 12 months I could decide to follow a military carrer or not.

But it's not fair, I would have to say goodbye to my business and stuff, so I have to find a way to get exempted.


I don't even know how you expect us to help you? This isn't a problem (experienced) IMers could solve, this is something an experienced lawyer can help you with. You're looking for a legal loophole to avoid being drafted. How the heck would we know how to do that?
 
I don't even know how you expect us to help you? This isn't a problem (experienced) IMers could solve, this is something an experienced lawyer can help you with. You're looking for a legal loophole to avoid being drafted. How the heck would we know how to do that?

You and I have far more in common than you might think. :)
 
Plead insanity. If they want to meet in person gargle some toothpaste so your all frothy and smash up their office.
 
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