I know ppl think it is bad form to say SEO X and Y program is dead but isn't it just going to get worse and worse as G improves their algorithm to prevent manipulation tricks? This is a really depressing thought but oftentimes reality aint pretty. We've seen how AMR died a horrible death. SB and xrumer although they may still have some effect will prob just get downrated more and more with each update till they get snuffed completely. You have to admit that all the programs work less effectively than they used to so what makes you so confident that with future updates they won't get snuffed out altogether? Judging by how things are going I can easily see xrumer and sb et al going the way of AMR. What then?