I have no mouth and I must...open a dispute

Sorry mods, it was a mistake to update the dispute rules.

Look at how things are nowadays:

- you must have at least 15 posts to PM someone on BHW
- at the same time, you can't open a dispute if the conversation started on Telegram or somewhere else. You NEED to PM the seller before buying.

Disputes are only eligible if the conversation started on this forum.
But how can they start here if newbies have no right to PM the seller (scammer)? They have no mouth!!

This is the result: all those guys, except for @astr0 can't even open a dispute here, if they try, their dispute will be rejected, as the conversation do not started on BHW (it would be impossible, it's not their fault).

$5500 in losses on this ongoing scam: https://www.blackhatworld.com/seo/r...pto-finance-offers-all-geos-accepted.1830816/

(please, let's just close this thread and put a huge warnings to avoid more victims?)


Those guys are not entitled to get a dispute approved according to this mod update:
https://www.blackhatworld.com/seo/m...on-rules-clarifications.1818087/post-20787166




How could they even start a conversation on BHW and follow this procedure if they can't even do that?

They started on Telegram, since it's the official contact mentioned by the scammer on his BST. It was approved by mods. Newbies can't send a private message to discuss stuff here, so they go to Telegram where there are no 15 post requirements.

There are 3 ways to possibly deal with it:

- completely remove the 15 post requirement: terrible idea, our DMs will be flooded by newly created accounts spreading garbage and spam (forget it)

- allow newbies and newly created accounts to exclusively contact upgraded members (only them) without a 15 posts requirement? is it feasible? not sure, I hope so, I'd like that.

- admit that this update was wrong and start accepting disputes based on official contact forms mentioned on the approved BST - which means, if you bought something on their website or through their telegram account, discovered through this forum and didn't receive anything, you can open a dispute, as it was in the past (but mods do not want to moderate disputes created by people who found that service somewhere else)

- (4 and i'd like to implement it as a bonus) - you are only allowed to put a Telegram contact after your BST is at least 1 year old and your account is at least 2 years old - before that, you are forced to conduct all business conversations on BHW DM system. Nonetheless, you are also forced to accept at least 1 payment method with a dispute system/refund availability/escrow before your BST is at least 1 year old. A payment method like that being mandatory. You can also accept crypto or bank transfer, but not only that.

This crypto+telegram bonus is the whole point of those scammers, this is the paradise for them. Legit sellers don't have any problem in offering a whole range of payment methods such as revolut, payoneer, paypal, cards, crypto, bank transfer and more. (Escrow would be the final solution for all this shit, but marketplace 2.0 or whole escrow implementation is coming later than gta 6, let's be realistic)

This whole update might have artificially reduced the amount of disputes here, but the scams continue running rampant, they are still pretty much happening all the time, you can't just see them, as many disputes can't even be opened or approved based on the current rules. We need to change or undo some stuff.

Venusaur said:

start accepting disputes based on official contact forms mentioned on the approved BST - which means, if you bought something on their website or through their telegram account, discovered through this forum and didn't receive anything, you can open a dispute, as it was in the past

Click to expand...

To me, this is the only logical option. If a seller lists specific contact details in their approved BST, those should be considered an official channel for transactions originating from that BST, regardless if it's BHW PMs, Telegram, website or anything else...

Either do that, or simply don't allow any other way of contact but BHW PMs. But that would then also require modifying some stuff i guess...

LilMosey said:

To me, this is the only logical option. If a seller lists specific contact details in their approved BST, those should be considered an official channel for transactions originating from that BST, regardless if it's BHW PMs, Telegram, website or anything else...

Either do that, or simply don't allow any other way of contact but BHW PMs. But that would then also require modifying some stuff i guess...

Click to expand...

Yes, i'd like a chat system here, to make things more dynamic, there must be some Xenforo plugin for that, but i'm a complete ignorant on this matter

the fastest way to do something without changing much and without depending on feasibility of ideas is simply make things as they were until a few months ago

These needed to be addressed or adjusted one way or the other.

I know it was with good intentions when the 15-post requirement was introduced to help reduce spamming but it certainly created an obvious flaw in another area, which if not pointed out like OP has done here, one might not really think of.

The good thing is that it has now been identified and hopefully action is being taken toward fixing the loophole that has been created.

I don't know, maybe in the short term while options are being considered, a simple pop-up when a Marketplace thread is opened by someone, with a warning about spam and maybe about not messaging sellers directly off BHW, would help.

That way, newbies at least would be conscious of the likelihood of scams happening

I just think people are operating based on the good faith they have in the forum to have vetted sellers and BST threads before they go live,
So they end up not doing their own due diligence to find out if a seller is legit or not before going into business with them.

In my humble opinion, you should just mind your own business, get a job and stop trying to create disturbances on this forum.

Jukino said:

In my humble opinion, you should just mind your own business, get a job and stop trying to create disturbances on this forum.

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Joined the forum 5 minutes back just to take a piss and asking him to mind his own business lol

NirvanaWolf said:

Joined the forum 5 minutes back just to take a piss and asking him to mind his own business lol

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it's funny, but concerning when they don't use their own profiles, maybe it's because they were already banned

Honestly, half the new members don't even know this 15-post rule exists. I didn't either initially. When genuine buyers get locked out without explanation, many simply abandon the forum. We really need a smoother system for verified buyers because without them, the marketplace loses its value.

I was wondering why the dispute section was so quiet.

Looks good on paper.

In reality scammers are scamming and newbs can't start a dispute because of the telegram contact rule.

:/

Thanks for pointing out this loophole. Hopefully, it'll help mods prevent scams in the future.

LilMosey said:

To me, this is the only logical option. If a seller lists specific contact details in their approved BST, those should be considered an official channel for transactions originating from that BST, regardless if it's BHW PMs, Telegram, website or anything else...

Either do that, or simply don't allow any other way of contact but BHW PMs. But that would then also require modifying some stuff i guess...

Click to expand...

Yes, the contact mentioned on BST should be considered official mode of communication. Many people don't even create account on BHW. They just find BSTs on Google search, contact people on telegram, get scammed, and complain everywhere that BHW is full of scammers. This will bring a bad reputation to the community despite severe moderation and precautions to prevent scams.

Venusaur said:

Yes, i'd like a chat system here, to make things more dynamic, there must be some Xenforo plugin for that, but i'm a complete ignorant on this matter

the fastest way to do something without changing much and without depending on feasibility of ideas is simply make things as they were until a few months ago

Click to expand...

Or at least allow members to contact sellers on DM without any limits.

SirTop said:

These needed to be addressed or adjusted one way or the other.

I know it was with good intentions when the 15-post requirement was introduced to help reduce spamming but it certainly created an obvious flaw in another area, which if not pointed out like OP has done here, one might not really think of.

The good thing is that it has now been identified and hopefully action is being taken toward fixing the loophole that has been created.

I don't know, maybe in the short term while options are being considered, a simple pop-up when a Marketplace thread is opened by someone, with a warning about spam and maybe about not messaging sellers directly off BHW, would help.

That way, newbies at least would be conscious of the likelihood of scams happening

I just think people are operating based on the good faith they have in the forum to have vetted sellers and BST threads before they go live,
So they end up not doing their own due diligence to find out if a seller is legit or not before going into business with them.

Click to expand...

The DM option can show alert that they need 15 messages to DM and warning that off-forum communication with sellers won't be accepted as proof in case of disputes. It'll then be left to member whether they wait until they reach the limit & contact on DM, or take the risk & contact on other platforms.

NirvanaWolf said:

Joined the forum 5 minutes back just to take a piss and asking him to mind his own business lol

Click to expand...

English to English translation: Don't interfere in our scams

Lannister10 said:

Honestly, half the new members don't even know this 15-post rule exists. I didn't either initially. When genuine buyers get locked out without explanation, many simply abandon the forum. We really need a smoother system for verified buyers because without them, the marketplace loses its value.

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True. The forum should implement every possible rule to encourage more sales.

Vynith said:

I was wondering why the dispute section was so quiet.

Looks good on paper.

In reality scammers are scamming and newbs can't start a dispute because of the telegram contact rule.

:/

Click to expand...

All new rules made the job of mods easier. There are heavy filters in place to bring everything under control.

Jukino said:

In my humble opinion, you should just mind your own business, get a job and stop trying to create disturbances on this forum.

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Why r u crying here then? You can't do a *hit as a newbie love. Do it for yourself unemployed hater

calm down guys
i don't want to see mods locking this thread before the reported BST, which is still active

Venusaur said:

Disputes are only eligible if the conversation started on this forum.

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TBH, I think this is one of the most terrible ideas and seems like the mods are just trying to avoid taking responsibility. Since sellers and upgrade members are allowed to put outside contact information in their BSTs/signatures, then eligibility should be based on whether the conversation started on this forum or through any of the sellers communication channels.

Ok, once again... DMs aren't the ONLY way to have a conversation. Lets do some role playing.

I am a brand new user, 0 posts. I have found a seller I want to buy something from. I can't send them a DM yet, but I can reply to threads.

---

Scenario 1 (in sales thread): Hey, I'm really interested in your product. However, before I buy can you tell me {insert question here}?

Scenario 2 (in sales thread): I'd really like to talk to you about your product via DM. Could you please send me one since I can't send them myself right now?

Scenario 3 (via outside contact such as Telegram): I know you have a thread on BlackHat world. Could you do me a favor and send my account a DM so I can verify this is the correct contact? My username is {insert user name here}.

---

All 3 of these scenarios make the brand new user, who can't send DMs yet, eligible for a dispute against the seller. The 3rd scenario, of course, does depend on the seller actually DMing the user but if they don't, do you really want to use them? That right there is kind of a big old red flag.

An observation I've made since we clarified the rules and started making sure that there has been notable engagement on the forum before going through with a dispute is 9 out of 10 times the user ACTUALLY DID ONE OF THOSE 3 THINGS but with other sellers. So they're ready to go if something goes wrong with the other sellers. Just not the one that actually went sideways.

We're trying to educate new users as much as possible, but they really do need to read the rules before actually contacting sellers to make sure they're making themselves eligible for a Dispute.

Venusaur said:

Those guys are not entitled to get a dispute approved according to this mod update:
https://www.blackhatworld.com/seo/m...on-rules-clarifications.1818087/post-20787166

Click to expand...

Interaction in the dispute rules is defined as:

"Any meaningful back and forth between the buyer and seller about the purchase somewhere on BHW. This could be in their sales thread, their WTB/HAF threads or via DM."

Re the specific case you've highlighted, all these users had the option and ability to post in the sales thread. Not one of these users in this specific case has attempted to issue a dispute. None of the users in this specific case has contacted Support.

If a dispute fails because it doesn't meet the requirements, we don't just discard any evidence that is provided to us.

I'm sure @PetraAnn will add here, but there is nothing stopping a user from posting in the sales thread, asking the seller to DM them, confirming a transaction here on the forum and continuing the conversation elsewhere. That's interaction on BHW.

PetraAnn said:

Ok, once again... DMs aren't the ONLY way to have a conversation. Lets do some role playing.

I am a brand new user, 0 posts. I have found a seller I want to buy something from. I can't send them a DM yet, but I can reply to threads.

Click to expand...

MintyGreenTea said:

Interaction in the dispute rules is defined as:

Click to expand...

Thank you for answering. It's true that newbies need to be more educated and in this perfect world, everyone will read the rules and make sure to drop a public comment before buying something, but it actually doesn't happen in most cases -- and it's simply unnatural in some situations-- new members just see the BST first page, they see the official ways to contact OP, which were approved by mods with the rest of the post, they see the banner in the signature space redirecting to a Telegram chat, which is also allowed and they don't see any button to contact the seller (scammer) on BHW itself, so, what are they going to do? Not in vain, the vast majority of them will click on that signature banner or send a message in a chat system mentioned in the first post -- as they can't do that on BHW and they will naturally assume it won't affect their eligibility for a refund. If the scammer is allowed to redirect me to an external page, why would I lose my right to be protected by this forum hosting a scam offer?

The proposal of relying on every newbie to read all those rules before buying something here is simply unrealistic. You two are enlightened people, but me and most random newbies here don't read the T&C of every website before buying something, in more than 2 years here, I've never fully read the rules, they simply won't do that. And to be fair, they are right in assuming it won't affect their eligibility for a dispute, they contacted the seller/scammer through a proper channel mentioned on the approved BST or they bought through the official website -- if OP is allowed to use this forum to redirect people to an external link, why would newbies be forbidden to follow the natural route? Why is the scammer allowed to redirect people to their shady Telegram account and the victims are not allowed to click on his call-to-actions on BHW and be eligible for a refund? They are simply following the intended path to buy the product. This is the natural route, just click on the call-to-action. The "BUY NOW" button is redirecting them to a Telegram chat, not to BHW DM system. There's no "Drop a comment below and I will DM you on BHW". There is just a button to discuss in Telegram.

Not to say about people who simply do not have any questions. Ok, the BST post was clear enough,I don't have any questions, I don't want to discuss anything with the seller, just buy and have my service/product delivered. I do that all the time, at least I have the knowledge to prioritize old threads from reputable members instead of buying from those guys who upgraded their account yesterday after spamming this forum, as I'm reporting everyday. People who do to that and buy directly on the website will not be eligible for a dispute, you are forced to discuss something with the seller, even if you don't have questions and there is a website available to just fill out your data and buy the service. Why would it be a problem? They simply clicked on the call-to-action and followed the intended route, I wouldn't imagine that I'd need to do anything else.

Well, I guess this was a good way to artificially decrease the amount of disputes and hide some issues under the rug, the hard truth is that newbies won't read the rules, they will assume this forum is a safe place with decent people, they will just click on the shiny BUY NOW button, on the signature banner, on the BST image or whatever, and they will all redirect them to the scammer Telegram page, which is allowed here and they will naturally assume it's everything fine, no need to chitchat in public, no need to beg sellers to send me a DM 8 hours later, no need to hunt a ''message me" button, which they won't find until they reach 15 posts. Yeah, they might be stupid and uneducated, they need to have more common sense, but if BHW wants to have a good reputation, you guys will need to protect them, this forum doesn't offer escrow, it allows this perfect Telegram+Crypto combo, which is perfect for scammers and don't want to take some responsibilities when buyers are scammed? BHW team will need to offer more protection for buyers, a good start is to revoke this update.

About this specific BST, which is now closed: this is not even the problem. This guy doesn't care if we are discussing on BHW, Telegram or whatever, he won't deliver anything, no matter if you open a dispute or not, who cares, he invested $750 for a marketplace seller badge and with only 1 victim, he earned $3k, it was already a very positive ROI. His telegram link is still available there, he is not banned even with multiple scam reports, he must be until today receiving messages from potential victims thanks to the link on his approved BST. The issue here would be: this BST It shouldn't even have been approved, the rules for this kind of product/services should be different, more requirements, more expensive, more evidences., stricter. Right now he can just create another account, invest $750, easily pass through the approval process and steal thousands of dollars per victim. He's allowed to put his Telegram link, to accept only crypto, perfect setup for scammers. Victims can't even open a useless dispute to be ignored (he already ran with the money and vanished).

Telegram allowed + Only crypto allowed + No escrow + No dispute protection in several cases + Any random dude can instantly upgrade his account for $750 and sell $3k services = a dream made reality for scammers.

What I understand is that requiring 15 posts before being able to post in the WTB and Hire a Freelancer section is not a good idea.

If I am a newbie, I would post in the Hire a Freelancer section. Then, to contact me, seller need to send a PM with my contact information, so there is automatically a record of the conversation with that person.

Now, a newbie cannot post in the WTB and Hire a Freelancer section, so they have only one option: go through different BSTs in the marketplace and contact people through Telegram (almost on all cases). This can create situations where the newbie has no proper proof of the conversation or agreement if something goes wrong.

So I think the 15-post requirement for the WTB and Hire a Freelancer section is only making things harder for new members.

PetraAnn said:

Ok, once again... DMs aren't the ONLY way to have a conversation. Lets do some role playing.

I am a brand new user, 0 posts. I have found a seller I want to buy something from. I can't send them a DM yet, but I can reply to threads.

---

Scenario 1 (in sales thread): Hey, I'm really interested in your product. However, before I buy can you tell me {insert question here}?

Scenario 2 (in sales thread): I'd really like to talk to you about your product via DM. Could you please send me one since I can't send them myself right now?

Scenario 3 (via outside contact such as Telegram): I know you have a thread on BlackHat world. Could you do me a favor and send my account a DM so I can verify this is the correct contact? My username is {insert user name here}.

---

All 3 of these scenarios make the brand new user, who can't send DMs yet, eligible for a dispute against the seller. The 3rd scenario, of course, does depend on the seller actually DMing the user but if they don't, do you really want to use them? That right there is kind of a big old red flag.

An observation I've made since we clarified the rules and started making sure that there has been notable engagement on the forum before going through with a dispute is 9 out of 10 times the user ACTUALLY DID ONE OF THOSE 3 THINGS but with other sellers. So they're ready to go if something goes wrong with the other sellers. Just not the one that actually went sideways.

We're trying to educate new users as much as possible, but they really do need to read the rules before actually contacting sellers to make sure they're making themselves eligible for a Dispute.

Click to expand...

I think the problem is that most of the victims who fall for these scams are newbies who are not aware of the scams going on. There are probably also non members who find these services through Google, so they just click on the seller's Telegram link and trade with them without having to register on the forum.

I think there should be some kind of warning on every BST thread about dealing through outside contact information.

BTW, I don't see any reason why outside contact information is allowed on BSTs but is not eligible when it comes to disputes. This does not make any sense TBH.

Rufai said:

I think the problem is that most of the victims who fall for these scams are newbies who are not aware of the scams going on. There are probably also non members who find these services through Google, so they just click on the seller's Telegram link and trade with them without having to register on the forum.

Click to expand...

This is a great point. I have some posts here with more than 50K views, they are ranking on Google. Everyday there is someone sending me a message on Telegram. I suppose many of them are not registered as members here. Others are busy entrepreneurs with newbie accounts without profile pictures, they won't write 15 comments here.