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A Long View Perspective on Penguin 2.0

Discussion in 'Black Hat SEO' started by Scritty, May 24, 2013.

  1. Scritty

    Scritty Elite Member Premium Member

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    Hi,

    Just realized that tomorrow is exactly 17 years since I started in IM. 25th May 1996. Pre Google. Keyword stuffing, buying banner space, gaming Lycos and Alta Vista. I had just been turned down for a promotion at work and really needed the extra cash. In my mind (like so many people applying for a big promotion) the expected pay rise was already spent. I needed that extra cash. I saw a news program about the burgeoning .com boom (there was one on every 20 minutes back then) and asked around "How did these guys make money".
    I didn't have a "big idea" but I was told that piggy backing on other peoples ideas as someone who could market for them was a great way to get a head start. The word "affiliate" was never used - but that's what it was.

    On 25th May I bought my first domain and spent about 3 weeks trying to set up a website on it selling shoes by mail order as a sort of affiliate with a handshake deal from the shoe makers (which they honoured for as long as I had the site). I made my first few quid (I'm British) in August of that year and by Christmas was making almost 50% of my income online. I was earning a LOT more than the lady who got the promotion.

    Back to today (wibbly screen...wooh woooh wibbly screen)

    Today this site is full of "Oh noes. .SEO is dying. Is there still any value in link building? - Shall I go back to stacking shelves in the supermarket"?

    Other sites (ones full of self righteous "johnny come lately's") - and yes I'm talking about you among others Mr Fishkin - actually feed the flames.
    "Tidy up your act. Do this - do that - this WON'T WORK anymore."
    And it's the use of these empirical statements that REALLY winds me up.

    Penguin 2.0 is ONGOING - the dust hasn't settled yet, the cards are STILL BEING SHUFFLED yet I see SEO after SEO claiming to have found the "golden answer" already.
    How? How the feck did they do that when the index is still very much in flux - and will be for many days to come?
    What exactly have these people extrapolated so far from a shuffling index.
    If they played poker could they tell if they would have the best dealt hand while the cards are being shuffled?
    (In case you are wondering the answer is "No")

    Here's a post with perspective. I left the links in on purpose (they don't lead to any sites of mine but to authority SEO sites) See just how much the world has changed in the last ten years (no...not ;) )
    THE POST

    Look at the shocking news I read today (then please read the summary at the bottom)
    [​IMG]
    "With the latest update Google is looking to increase the value of authority sites. Sites that have links from other authority sites and have good quality content themselves may well be rewarded with an increase in search engine ranking while those that rely on links from irrelevant sites may well suffer as a result of the latest update"

    Penguin 2.0?
    Nope. This is the "Google Bourbon" update from 2004. It was the "End of SEO"

    Ok what about this then...

    "This latest update is the ultimate anti spam sub algorithm. The most severe slap Google has ever given the the SEO community. Bad links - poor context and poor surrounding content will be for the long drop and Google sets out to clean house.
    Sites where our algorithms had very low trust in the inlinks or the outlinks of that site. Examples that might cause that include excessive reciprocal links, linking to spammy neighborhoods on the web, or link buying/selling.

    So this is Penguin 2.0 then?
    Nope This is the "Google Big Daddy" update from 2005. It was the "End of SEO"


    Ok - what about THIS one them...

    Google latest update seem to prefer older sites in some cases, although it is all still at an early stage.
    We have been seeing some updates in Page ranks and the like, but fortunately going towards the positive point and taking the link building process into consideration. Poor quality links are being penalized as best practice for SEO is being rewarded (at last). The quality and relevancy of content is also part of this update.

    So this has GOT to be Penguin then. Or maybe Panda (it mentions content)?
    Nope this is a "Google Dewey" update from 2008. It was widely regarded as the "End of SEO"



    • Is this a full and complete list?
    • How many updates has Google had that have said much the same thing?
    "No" and "plenty" are the answers you are looking for.


    And the unasked question?

    Yes - Almost all the updates say more or less the exact same thing. They go back to 2003 with "Fritz". Their have been many since.

    A reasonably full list of those updates that the SE giant will openly discuss is here

    Some Serious Points

    The update has only just been rolled out less than 48 hours ago. It will take up to a week for the dust to settle. Don't extrapolate anything yet. The indexes are in flux. The results are best measured once they have settled.
    Google has made many (many) changes, all supposedly to the same aim. While the indexes are getting a little better and quality is slowly winning out over spam - it's pretty easy to see it's a war of attrition. No "one" update ever changes anything like as much of the index landscape as the noise disgruntled SEO's make would seem to suggest.

    Links win - always have - always will. Think a few hundred quality rather than tens of thousands of rubbish links. No news here. Nothing to see...move on.

    Of course I will take a look at Penguin 2.0 in due time. I'll wait for the updates to complete and the shuffling to settle down. That may take a good few days yet. Be wary of the "gurus" who tell you they know all about this or any other update almost as soon as the rollout has started. They don't and indeed can't know the ramifications as it is currently an on-going process.
    Now - Penguin 2.0 is a deck of cards... in mid shuffle
     
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  2. steelballs

    steelballs BANNED BANNED

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    Thanks Scritty a top post, relevant too as I started in this game too in 95/96 so know and appreciate where you are coming from...

    Scritty uses prudence and waits then...

    "Hay see all those young Heifers at the bottom of the hill, lets rum down and get a few of them". The Old bull looks at the young bull and says ....... Lets walk and get them all....

    In other words DO NOT PANIC as there is way to work it all out...
     
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  3. thinktank1

    thinktank1 Regular Member

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    excellent post. Even though I have not been in the game as long as you (1.5 years) everyone needs to understand that there will always be that "seo is dead" day every now and then. Its the real seo guys that analyze and come up with their own theories that succeed. To sum it up real blackhatters will succeed ​ no matter what google throws at them.
     
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  4. sensitiveheart_4

    sensitiveheart_4 Power Member

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    SEO will never die

    Its all about how you do it, Penguin 2.0 has been a good update for me

    I now ranking for keywords which i have never ranked in top 100 before
     
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    Last edited: May 24, 2013
  5. innozemec

    innozemec Jr. VIP Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    Pretty well said man!

    And I am from long time in this game and have seen lots of things, but SEO still works and as long as there are Search Engines there will be and SEO. It is inevitable part!
     
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  6. cecle

    cecle Regular Member

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    I completely agree with you, the only reason these 'industry leaders' preach this stuff is for marketing as they are seen to be abiding by the Google guidelines etc. You can spend your days writing article after article but the only reason you will get more and more traffic is because you get LINKS. Links are what Google's algorithm is patented on and how the whole infrastructure was designed to read. They are not going to go away and will always be vital for rankings.
     
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  7. jascoken

    jascoken Senior Member

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    Abso-frickin-lutely!

    What frustrates me more than anything, is that through all those updates and changes (I've been doing this since '04 - not quite as long as you), great money can still be made and good businesses can still be built. SO MANY people come to IM without treating it like a real business; expecting everything to fall into their laps... That's just not the real world. You're going to have learn to deal with a whole load of crap and problems if you want a long-term successful business.

    i think the best advice I could give someone new to the game, is to really get your head around thinking of this as a business. Build a company. Look for the angles that others aren't taking. Use tools differently to everyone else; be creative. Think bigger and wider... Make lots of mistakes and don't expect to make a profit at the start!

    Good thread Scritty!
     
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  8. Scritty

    Scritty Elite Member Premium Member

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    Try telling the twats at Warrior that.
    Been trolled by some dildo there who links to the biggest article of fear mongering crud you would ever wish to see.
    Guess experience of this sort of thing happening over and over again - and amounting every single time to "not a lot" doesn't play into whatever snake oil he's trying to sell.

    Still - all you can do is put the documented evidence in front of people. If they choose to ignore it and say "but this time it's different" (and they say that every bloody time as well) we'll have to put up with this doom and gloom crap.

    Got to laugh. :)
     
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  9. dastard

    dastard Registered Member

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    My new site will have;

    1. quality original content updated regularly.

    2. contextual links from a variety of sources.

    Thats it. There are other facets of seo I'm taking into consideration, but that'll be the basis.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think I have anything to fear from any google algorithm update.
     
  10. coxi999

    coxi999 Junior Member

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    Hope all the "SEO is dead" preachers get out the game and open up some more serp positions for us all to bank ;}
     
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  11. jascoken

    jascoken Senior Member

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    Well, for someone who joined a year ago, that seems a bizarre statement to make...

    Have you read any of the countless studies on penalised 'white-hat' sites?

    If I had a dollar for every client that says they've done white-hat only, or even more actually rarely, STUCK to whitehat (what the hell does that mean anyway?) then I'd have made a lot more than I actually did...

    read between the lines: NO, it does not guarantee ANY protection from Googles pseudo-random effects and algo changes; you're giving them more intelligence that they deserve.

    And please; I'm not just ranting here. Take this seriously... If you think that "playing by Google's rules" will protect you then you will come seriously unstuck. I'm not saying don't follow 'whitehat' philosophy - that's your business choice and prerogative... But expecting them to leave you alone because of that could drop you in the slop!
     
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  12. FuryKyle

    FuryKyle Jr. VIP Jr. VIP Premium Member

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    Excellent post Scritty. It's been barely 2 days since the update and people are already claiming they know how to "beat" it. The truth is, sites are still constantly shuffling around and I hope no one falls into the "BEAT PENGUIN WITH MY BLUEPRINT" bandwagon. Everytime an update happens, a few "This is the end of SEO" topics inevitably pop up. This post should be where newbies are referred to everytime an update happens.
     
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    Last edited: May 24, 2013
  13. JackPi

    JackPi Newbie

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    After Penguin 2.0 all my sites down from page 1 :(
     
  14. pandadog

    pandadog Registered Member

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    I'm at a loss for what happened with Google. 10 keyword in the top 10 on bing, 1 on Google. I suppose Bing is worth something.
     
  15. dastard

    dastard Registered Member

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    Coming from a person with all your stars and colours and shit, I'll indeed re-examine my position.

    Seems I have some reading to do....
     
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  16. Scritty

    Scritty Elite Member Premium Member

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    Great attitude :)

    Nothing wrong with wanting it to be clean and tidy - but it's no guarantee of anything.
    White Hat means noting to google - it's not a phrase they use much and certainly not one they endorse of condone
    The long and the short of it - link building is link building.
    While you might lower risk by staying clean no way do you remove it.
    The flip side is you rank a lot slower and your market is moving on the whole time you are crawling your way up serps

    But even that is a generalization.

    Wish it was clearer to define - but Google quite deliberately obfuscate the proces to prevent it being gamed to overtly.

    Scritty
     
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  17. badrman2

    badrman2 Registered Member

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    Hello and thank you for your post, the only thing that everyone should know in IM specialy in SEO, There will be battle between Seach engine and IM Geek, So every time search engine make update make sure Always will learn their own game. "Red lines. Found to penetrate .."
     
  18. jascoken

    jascoken Senior Member

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    'Stars and colours and shit' ... I love it! :)

    Seriously; understand that Google is a commercial entity trying to make money - very successfully -and with its own agendas. It's nothing personal with them. They roll-out changes to try and 'improve' some aspect of their business-model (and it might not be anything to do with real search quality') and there is always massive collateral damage; even with the 'best' of sites.

    Don't think like an IM'er; don't be a one-string guitar... Think about how you would build and protect a real business; widen your sales funnell and diversify your traffic/income streams.
     
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  19. jambox

    jambox Registered Member

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    So long as there is a search engine, it has to use some sort of algo to measure which sites rank highly in it's index.

    There will always be a way to manipulate this, you just have to fulfil the criteria on which said search engine set.

    SEO can never die

    Good, well informed post Scritty:cowboy:
     
  20. Scritty

    Scritty Elite Member Premium Member

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    Just like the Wizard of Oz - there's always someone behind the curtain doing something.
    The idea that Google is flawless in execution is ridiculous. It has one of the most complex (mathematically at least) tasks to undertake. No one individual could hope to know or understand the ramifications of a tweak to the algo here or a nudge there. It's complexity piled on complexity.

    But underneath someone somewhere is pedalling like mad to both keep it "making some kind of sense" and keeping the likes of us from knowing too much.
    A method that can be understood to an extent via the results it produces.
    And while their is a method - there will be those who look to shortcut it. That's not just Google - that's the whole darn world!


    Scritty