Hi

This is my first post on the forum so please excuse my lack of knowledge on the finer points of mass emailing.

We want to promote our services to UK based businesses. We already do a lot of email marketing and have got a great mass emailer programmer we use for all our own opted in data which is approx 40k addresses.

However we want to seriously increase our marketing activity and want to attract new companies which we are building lists of from using scraping software and email spiders BUT on checking the UK email laws I find that we are fine to send emails to limited or public companies but businesses that are in effect sole traders or partnerships, eg many accountants, surveyors, lawyers actually count as indivduals rather than businesses so in effect as they havent opted in then we are breaking the spam laws.

If we send to an info@xyzcompany.com and its a registered company then we are totally fine it seems but if that person turns out to be a sole trader or partnership we are stuffed.

To sift all this data is a nightmare and check everyone on the list so am stuck!

We have UK, Spanish and BVI companies within our group and so am checking on how spain interprets whats an individual and whats a "proper" business so my question is, if we wanted to send the email out and be fully protected from breaking any UK laws are there better places to do this from that dont have the same spam laws?

Can we get a server somewhere and start mailing away?

Thanks in advance

Great idea coming to a black hat marketing forum when you are worried about the fine print of the law

So this is all legal now? scrap opted in lol

I would think that comes under spanish law not UK law


yer go for it if anyone asks just say its ok cos i asked on a back hat marking forum and some one said it was not a problem

thanks for the highly constructive reply...

what I am worried about is getting the server we use banned or a fine, I was hoping for some tips rather than just total sarcasm

lol.... you mean, if Microsoft wants to promote Vista via spam, they just need to relocate to Papua New Guinea?

If you're promoting your own product, you're busted for spam regardless.

Spammers do everything to protect their anonymity. If you're thinking that just by relocating you can spam - you need a better lawyer.

Well maybe you should of just said it the way it is
You just scrapped a shit load of emails
And now want to know how to spam the ass of them without any come backs

Legitimate companies rarely buy products from spammers(esp in the UK). Your company's reputation will be left to nothing if you decide to promote products via spam.

Mike,

Welcome to the forum. Hope you learn to like it here.

I doubt this is the answer you were hoping for but I'm going to give it to you anyway...

If you can't legally email the companies you want to target in the UK and you seriously want to protect the integrity of your company's reputation, you ought to consider making initial contact via some other means; either through snail mail or some other offline advertising.

Entice your targets to come to your website and opt in to your list so you CAN email them. Any other method is going to be considered spam, will violate the law and will likely not bode well for establishing a good first impression.

If, on the other hand, you just want to offer them male enhancement products or discount Rolex watches, register an anonymous domain in Panama and get a server there. The Panamanian privacy laws are some of the best in the world.

@mikeodyssey

you can find some useful information here:

hxxp://www.euro.cauce.org/en/countries/

*Countries where "Opt-in" legislation has been enacted.
+Countries where "Opt-in" legislation is under consideration.

Hi Mike,

I mail a UK list of 2.1 million UK businesses 3 to 5 times a week for a UK company. We comply with all ICO guidelines and have real world name, company reg, phone and a functional unsub link on all email as required by law.

The list is not opt-in but rather compiled from over 200 sources being printed directories, websites and purchased lists. You are correct in that sole traders / partnerships should not be mailed but we simply mail all businesses and unsubscribe any who reply - although most simply use the unsub link.

Despite satisfying the ICO and having them comment we demonstrate best practise, we are the target of vigilante morons like ShitHaus and others and you need to expect you will be also.

Absolutely not the case - 95% of my client's revenue is from these mailings and the purchasers range from large corporate PLCs, to small / medium sized business, charities, shires and government agencies

They are interested in the offering, your credibility, and the value of your product to their needs

Hope that clarifies

Cheers

Ronin

Hi Ronin

Thanks for the post, we are in the same situation as you we are compiling a list of businesses from many different sources.

Our mailings will have all the correct info with real world name, opt out etc etc, our offering is that of online marketing services to specific types of businesses, it's not pills or dating or any stuff like that.

My concern was mailing sole traders or partnerships and what was the potential comeback and you along with my UK lawyer have eased my concerns, if you're an accountant and you receive a professional looking email targetted to helping accountants generate new business via the web and you have all the opt outs etc etc in his opinion if someone doesnt want it they will just delete and opt out. You may get the odd person kick off but he's not that worried about it.

Excuse my ignorance but whats the ShitHaus you mention and also do you know anywhere to get lists of uk businesses that aren't opted in but where someone else has done the hard work of trawling directories and yellow pages etc etc

Thanks again for your advice

Cheers

Mike

Ronin sorry one further question, what about getting our domain blacklisted? do you find this a problem and if so do you have any advice?

We will only be sending 300-500 emails a day so very very low volume compared to much of the stuff I read about on here/

Thanks

Mike

300 will not piss off anyone-but you just need to piss off ONE idiot.

If they see that you are legit and you did seek your consent for mailing-some of them will call their lawyer.

So, you just need one rare guy.

I suggest that you buy a list from a company. Any problems-you just pass the blame.

Hi Mike,

Sorry for my vagueness - "ShitHaus" is "SpamHaus" - the nuttiest vigilantes in the antispam brigade who think they are above the law. They have an $11 million judgement against them in the USA for crippling an ISP - but no assets and no presence there. We tried to sue them in the UK - but it's a $2 charity they hide behind, operating themselves from Geneva with servers in the Netherlands.

Sources of data abound but my hands are tied in that I can supply any data to anyone with the sole exception of UK data due to an agreement with my UK partner.

Toyo is right in that it only takes one idiot to create a stink, however this will be in the form of the antispam vigilantes trying to have your ISP terminate your account. You are not breaking the law to the point that they can sue you.

I use .co.uk domains for one mailing only, albeit I make large mailings, as even though they rarely get listed, they do get entered into filters. A couple of times a year one or more of my IP addresses gets nailed by SpamHaus - so I use 6 or 7 on each server to have spares.

What you should watch though is the URLs you place in the email body pointing to your website (in my case pointing to my unsub link). 60% of mine are listed in the URI blacklist during or immediately after each send and while this does not affect web visitors, it will affect delivery of email that contain the URL. With your 300 to 500 per day however it will take a while for you to lose a URL this way. The server I use for unsubs, images etc has over 200 domains on it so I just use them and toss them each send.

While I can't give you data I can advise on data quality - PM me BEFORE you buy any lists as we've bought from most and some are garbage. We are currently suing a UK list provider who took a small fortune and delivered garbage. There is good quality for free online but you have to work in raiding the sites with it.

Finally, even though data is purchased, the buck stops with you - you cannot simply mail bad data and blame the supplier. My experience is that purchased data is no better or worse than data harvested online

Cheers

Ronin

Yes they can - someone messed with a retard recently in the UK>



and it is only legal to send emails to work addresses - so an extracted list may get you into trouble

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3120628.stm

Hi Toyo,

This is not for sending unsolicited email - it is a case from 2005 against the company selling the data and under the Data Protection Act. I've also bought lists from Media Logisitcs, they one of the main list suppliers in the UK, but not usually the mailer of the data.

I often get unsubscribe requests where the recipient demands to know where we got their details. My database admin code gives me all sources for any email we have in the system in a cut and paste format that I send to the complainant - they can then follow up whoever sold the data, whatever publication or website they appear in.

Main thing is by unsubscribing them I comply with ICO guidelines and by providing them with both the source and the details of the data I hold on them - I comply with the Data Protection Act.

If the data came from Media Logisitics, and they then choose to ignore a valid request, then that is their problem but not mine

Mailing comes under the Information Commissioner's Office and they have told us on numerous occasions, when we respond to complaints through their office, that we are implementing "good practise"

Cheers

Ronin

lol... I love this.. the UK law is quite lax..


*runs off to email 100K .ac.uk email list.

It's quite fair in that it accepts that businesses should be open to receive email offers, whilst protecting individuals privacy

.ac.uk is a headache for me as they do purchase from unsolicited - but the worst nutters for giving you a problem are by and large .ac.uk

Cheers

Ronin

Agreed. Academics puts a high value on the sanctity of their inbox(s). I got banned by CJ for complains from .ac.uk addresses.

If you are genuine and you have a legit company, staying away from .ac.uk or .edu is a very good idea.

hi ronin i have private messaged you

Can I get my hand son thos UK email List

I spam for a living and all I can say is you need a hacker on your side. I don't recommend it because you don't neccassarily sound like you are pro at this. Get a VPS as an anaonymous entuty.

Well......emailing marketing seems not good I think, and I am sure the ones are also not good ..
But maybe we need it to active our site....
And we need some more other ideas on marketing.

Just a noob question.

I have 1500 domain names registreted by offshore, Inc (my) so this is posibility to have many, many email accounts.

I am not either USA or UK(EU) citizen.

I am not citizen of this offshore country where corp is registrated.

How this domains can be used for bulk email marketing (whatever White, Grey, Black Hat).

Best!