Craigslist is attempting to go after individual posters. READ THIS THREAD.

**John Dough** · #1 (**permalink**) 01-08-2009, 02:21 AM

This is straight from the EasyAd forums posted by Kevin himself. This is apparently from his legal representation.

"Kevin:

I have heard back from craigslist and they have indicated that your refusal to provide craigslist with a list of customers who purchased Easy Ad in order to protect your own business interest is indicative of a less than genuine desire to settle this matter. craigslist has instructed me to tell you that if you are sincerely interested in settling this matter, then you will need to provide us with [...] your customer list..."

We have summarily refused to release customer information on the grounds that it is unethical. Craigslist has dropped their settlement offer and is proceeding with discovery."

Take it as you may.

John

**mack** · #2 (**permalink**) 01-08-2009, 03:16 AM

Heh welcome to last week John.

**John Dough** · #3 (**permalink**) 01-08-2009, 03:36 AM

Just thought I would pass it on as I keep getting PM'd about it and couldn't find anything about it on here.

turbopugsleylx · #4 (**permalink**) 01-08-2009, 04:53 PM

hmmm anything else new besides this?

anything on adsoncr@igs?

**mrtornado** · #5 (**permalink**) 01-08-2009, 04:59 PM

you can imagine that they will go after each of them this way. At least I don't have to worry Kevin won't release them any list because he's a streight up guy.

Superdude22 · #6 (**permalink**) 01-08-2009, 05:04 PM

GREAT!, I have Admaster. Their site isn't even up anymore, they were having the same issues. Well, time find a new way. If they are going to be a-holes like that and actually try and sue them. I'm going to start spamming more, on my own.

dhamma_man · #7 (**permalink**) 01-08-2009, 05:30 PM

Hi all!

Just thought I'd let you know, if CL decides to proceed with "discovery", they can get sanctions against someone who doesn't comply, up to and including monetary damages (fines) and contempt of court rulings (jail time). So don't depend on ANYONE being able to keep information confidential unless they have a VERY LARGE legal fee war chest, and even then only if they have some fundamental right (such as freedom of the press) to hide behind.

All this means is that if you PURCHASED the software, you may be the next one to hear the "knock on the door". And let me just tell you, you haven't even begun to be reamed until you've been reamed in a legal action!

Cheers!

.

**dating101** · #8 (**permalink**) 01-08-2009, 05:35 PM

So glad that I did not purchase any of these auto posters.

I did get a free demo once, but used it for 15 posts and left it alone.

tsk. tsk. tsk.

**bizcredit** · #9 (**permalink**) 01-08-2009, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dhamma_man

Hi all!

Just thought I'd let you know, if CL decides to proceed with "discovery", they can get sanctions against someone who doesn't comply, up to and including monetary damages (fines) and contempt of court rulings (jail time). So don't depend on ANYONE being able to keep information confidential unless they have a VERY LARGE legal fee war chest, and even then only if they have some fundamental right (such as freedom of the press) to hide behind.

All this means is that if you PURCHASED the software, you may be the next one to hear the "knock on the door". And let me just tell you, you haven't even begun to be reamed until you've been reamed in a legal action!

Cheers!

.

Simply being a past customer is not enough to get a knock on the door. I bet 20%+ of the software's buyers did not ever use it to post an ad.

**popcrdom29** · #10 (**permalink**) 01-08-2009, 05:49 PM

You seriously think that cl is going to go after each and every buyer? If they did and with the number of EasyAd buyers, the court system would be tied up for 20 years and cl would spend hundreds of millions of dollars to try each case. At the least, they will send each purchaser a C&D order if it came down to it. At the most, cl would have to prove monetary damages in order to be compensated.

crashed · #11 (**permalink**) 01-08-2009, 05:53 PM

Lol, if I was him that db would have been shredded already and the drives burned

What can they do without evidence

:

**mrtornado** · #12 (**permalink**) 01-08-2009, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mreleet

Glad i never used this app, I have heard that every ad posted was logged on EAPD databases.

Craigslist is going to rape some people if they gold a hold of that db.

Totally not true. It's just newbie talk

**aмillionaírе** · #13 (**permalink**) 01-08-2009, 06:03 PM

Kevin should've deleted the DB along with closing the product, or so he should say he did... but then again I'm not Kevin.

grafxextreme · #14 (**permalink**) 01-08-2009, 06:13 PM

I really wouldn't worry about it too much.

If they're threatening discovery then that is usually all it is. If they really wanted to sue they would have sued and been done with it. The fact they're threatening discovery instead tells you a few things.

1) They don't want to waste money on court costs.
2) They don't want to endanger their good name and have this backfire on them when people hear that they sued some advertisers. This could be easily spun as big bad CL picking on advertisers. (public doesn't distinguish between an individual placing ads and pro placing ads)
3) They're hoping to scare Kevin to giving this info up and put him out of business.

This of course is not legal advice but I'm betting that is what his attorney has explained to him.

I had a multi-billion dollar financial corporation come after me a few years ago. Tried the same crap with me because I owned a domain name which they tried to intimidate me into handing over to them. Unfortunately, for them I had purchased the domain name nine months before they had the name trademarked.

They threatened me with discovery and I simply ignored them. They backed off when I explained how it was going to look, if they tried their crap on me, to the public and their shareholders.

Discovery can be an expensive process. Basically what they do is have their attorney "demand" documents, financial info, etc... from Kevin's attorney for Kevin to produce. The threat is that they're going to uncover something else. No matter what you give them they'll ask for more and they can keep this up for years. This gets to be very expensive for someone like Kevin.

He'll become a nervous wreck, have many sleepless nights, worried about his finances, etc... His legal fees will continue to climb while CL legal expenses are minimized because they're just paying an attorney to basically intimidate and terrorize him.

Discovery is basically a "fishing expedition".

Best way for Kevin to combat this is to get some of his clients to start an ant-CL campaign. Put up some YouTube videos, publish some messages in forums and get the public to start turning against CL. When CL starts seeing this anti-CL begin to take hold and go in Kevin's favor they'll back off and forget it.

Surely you guys know how to create these types of videos and forum and blog messages? Then how to send massive traffic to these videos and messages?

In the same way that CL is trying to send a message to Kevin and programmers like him -- you can send a message back to CL saying you're not going to be intimidated.

In the end it may mean that he can't sell his software but it's much cheaper to start this campaign than go through the legal expense of defending himself. The court of public opinion is always the best way to go.

dhamma_man · #15 (**permalink**) 01-08-2009, 06:22 PM

bizcredit-

The "knock on the door" in this instance would probably be a set of interrogatories (written questions) that you would have to answer under penalty of perjury that would delve into any and all information regarding your internet marketing, or indeed, any internet activities that "might lead to relevant information" regarding the original lawsuit or complaint.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that someone would literally knock on your door.

And the purpose would not necessarily be to actually drag everyone into court for some kinds of "damages" (which I'm sure CL cares nothing for), but to send a message to everyone purchasing this software that messing with CL can be very painful.

Not a happy thought, but you should have accurate information to base your decisions on.

Cheers!

wickid · #16 (**permalink**) 01-08-2009, 06:26 PM

Even if CL gets Kevin's DB...the worst they might do is try and mirror DirecTV's tactics when they would close down a site selling tools to decrypt their signal. Send letters demanding a payment for abuse of their system.

It's all BS anyhow as CL would have to prove that you paid for the software and were smart enough to figure out how to use it properly. If you bought the software and they can't prove you used it...good luck on them suing the individual.

grafxextreme · #17 (**permalink**) 01-08-2009, 07:24 PM

There's also the point that you are not responsible for what people decide to do with your software or product. If someone used their car to kill another person the auto manufacturer is not responsible for how their car was used. Only for defects of the car. In other words if someone intentionally ran over someone then it would be the fault of the driver. But if the reason for the accident was that the manufacturer installed faulty brakes then it would be the manufacturers fault.

However, if people were really concerned about Kevin turning over their names it seems it would be in their best interest to help Kevin out. No action = no concern for their own involvement.

Again, I'm not an attorney and this is not to be construed as legal advice.

===
P.S. For those who've PM'd me and asked what I did with the domain? If they hadn't been so quick to sic their legal on me I would have sold it to them cheap. Instead I refused to sell to them. I've made the site a trashy-spammy site on finances. They purchased a site with the LLC.com in it. Of course most prospective investors go to my site first.

**bizcredit** · #18 (**permalink**) 01-08-2009, 07:29 PM

They would just use the info to research you, figure out who you are online, and block you. Most likely

**tommysc** · #19 (**permalink**) 01-08-2009, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grafxextreme

P.S. For those who've PM'd me and asked what I did with the domain? If they hadn't been so quick to sic their legal on me I would have sold it to them cheap. Instead I refused to sell to them. I've made the site a trashy-spammy site on finances. They purchased a site with the LLC.com in it. Of course most prospective investors go to my site first.

This is great

- You should put up testimonials about how terrible the business practices of company X are.

Sometimes these people need to think reasonably before they act harshly, but than again... don't we all.

jsherloc · #20 (**permalink**) 01-08-2009, 08:41 PM

"The court of public opinion is always the best way to go"....ain't that the truth.

Somewhat related to this, I recently read that a professor from Harvard Law is trying to get the media access to cover a copyright infringement trial that will occur here in the states soon. Basically, to show just how money hungry and flat out ridiculous these corporate studios are because they are going after some college kid for downloading and distributing a few songs...I just thought of how brilliant this was.

Regardless though, I really don't see anyone winning a case against a harvard law professor hehehe.

l0cke · #21 (**permalink**) 01-09-2009, 07:26 AM

they could subpoena his host or their service providers.. or the billing company, all online billing is through outsourced companies as for the most part many people don't want to go the extra mile and extra lengths for a billing system outside of online services and if they did, that company would get subpoena'd as well..

l0cke

notrace · #22 (**permalink**) 01-09-2009, 09:22 AM

Fortunately I am posting the ads manually and never used an auto-posting tools.

**pussyback** · #23 (**permalink**) 01-13-2009, 06:07 PM

Fortunately I know how to code and never bought any software.

deatos · #24 (**permalink**) 01-13-2009, 06:13 PM

every time you run the software it connects to the license servers, frequent connection logs is enuff to prove that

Quote:

Originally Posted by wickid

Even if CL gets Kevin's DB...the worst they might do is try and mirror DirecTV's tactics when they would close down a site selling tools to decrypt their signal. Send letters demanding a payment for abuse of their system.

It's all BS anyhow as CL would have to prove that you paid for the software and were smart enough to figure out how to use it properly. If you bought the software and they can't prove you used it...good luck on them suing the individual.

lowno · #25 (**permalink**) 01-13-2009, 06:57 PM

This reminds me of the crackdown DirecTV did against the people selling equipment to get their service for free. The took them down then sent demand letters to the customer lists wanting $4k or something like that from each person on the list.

**pussyback** · #26 (**permalink**) 01-14-2009, 01:44 AM

WTF is craigs going to sue for there service is free and there not making shit so they not lossing shit.

**Laser** · #27 (**permalink**) 01-14-2009, 02:19 AM

those are the same tactics microsoft uses to out email spammers,
take them to court and fine them.

Spam emails are against the CanSpam law so spammers are compromised from the beginning.

Classified ads are NOT illegal, regardless of how they are posted or how many are posted.

Would be like Google coming after webmasters for "large numbers of sites and pages indexed".
IT AIN'T ILLEGAL.

CraigsList is trying to intimidate people today, and frighten future ad posters from raping their site in the future.

**Steeky** · #28 (**permalink**) 01-14-2009, 02:26 AM

I bought this software.......

**John Dough** · #29 (**permalink**) 01-14-2009, 03:15 AM

I would think it would be a violation of TOS, like the MySp*ce suicide deal.

But EAPD auto accepts TOS, so what do you do with that? End-users never even see it.

That's what I've heard at least.

**White-Collar** · #30 (**permalink**) 03-16-2009, 05:58 AM

Let this be a lesson: If you are going to buy software that is used for either illegal or tortuous purposes, you should pay for the software with an anonymous cash prepaid credit card. In the United States, go to a 7-11 and buy a "Vanilla Visa Gift Card". The max dollar amount per card is $100. There is a 6% fee, so a $100 card costs $106. If you need to pay for something that's more than $100, then ask the seller to let you split the payments and use several of these cards. Run the software on a leased server that you remotely connect to, instead of your home computer.

Then when anything like this happens, you'll be untouchable.

devyone · #31 (**permalink**) 03-16-2009, 06:38 AM

Very interesting indeed.

justone · #32 (**permalink**) 03-16-2009, 01:35 PM

I really wonder if they will start to sue the users of auto ad-poster software.
If they push hard enough they can probably get the list.

**misterajc** · #33 (**permalink**) 03-16-2009, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crashed

Lol, if I was him that db would have been shredded already and the drives burned

What can they do without evidence

:

Typically, if the evidence has been destroyed in a civil suit, the person who destroyed it loses the case. There are also possible civil and criminal penalties for obstruction of justice. The huge accounting company Arthur Andersen got reamed for destroying evidence in the Enron case, and the company was destroyed.

timmytuna · #34 (**permalink**) 03-16-2009, 02:10 PM

this is a thread from over 2 months ago......??? Havent you seen the news .....I mean in every major city in the US, law enforcement has been going around, ripping people out of their homes and locking them up by the thousands for posting ads on craigslist. It's the single biggest offence one can engage in in the 21st century!

calisupplier · #35 (**permalink**) 03-16-2009, 03:07 PM

I was wondering why my neigbor was being dragged from his house by the cops screaming "Don't use Craigslist, It's the Devil!!"

Now I know, thanks tuna.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmytuna

this is a thread from over 2 months ago......??? Havent you seen the news .....I mean in every major city in the US, law enforcement has been going around, ripping people out of their homes and locking them up by the thousands for posting ads on craigslist. It's the single biggest offence one can engage in in the 21st century!

**Laser** · #36 (**permalink**) 03-16-2009, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bler1

Let this be a lesson: If you are going to buy software that is used for either illegal or tortuous purposes, you should pay for the software with an anonymous cash prepaid credit card. In the United States, go to a 7-11 and buy a "Vanilla Visa Gift Card". The max dollar amount per card is $100. There is a 6% fee, so a $100 card costs $106. If you need to pay for something that's more than $100, then ask the seller to let you split the payments and use several of these cards. Run the software on a leased server that you remotely connect to, instead of your home computer.

Then when anything like this happens, you'll be untouchable.

Not Quite.

Quote:

Run the software on a leased server that you remotely connect to, instead of your home computer.

Obviously you are trying to make money and you probably will.
Investigators simply follow the money trail and will find you.
Microsoft, FBI and FTC have been using this tactic for 7 years since 2002.
When they want you bad enough they will travel the world to get you.
The borders of countries are no longer protection or safe havens.

**wmitchell003** · #37 (**permalink**) 03-16-2009, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bler1

Let this be a lesson: If you are going to buy software that is used for either illegal or tortuous purposes, you should pay for the software with an anonymous cash prepaid credit card. In the United States, go to a 7-11 and buy a "Vanilla Visa Gift Card". The max dollar amount per card is $100. There is a 6% fee, so a $100 card costs $106. If you need to pay for something that's more than $100, then ask the seller to let you split the payments and use several of these cards. Run the software on a leased server that you remotely connect to, instead of your home computer.

Then when anything like this happens, you'll be untouchable.

No, you just shouldn't do anything illegal, they will find you. But like Laser said posting large amounts of ads on CL is not illegal.

No Limits · #38 (**permalink**) 03-16-2009, 07:32 PM

I don't get the cause of action in this. I haven't followed the original CL story, but from what this looks like, the guy who wrote and sold the program for auto posting on CL is getting threatened by CL with lawsuits if he doesn't disclose his clients.

The part I don't get is where is the illegal part? posting ads on CL isn't illegal. Was it some obscure thing in the CL TOS that he broke? I would just love to know.

No Limits · #39 (**permalink**) 03-16-2009, 07:34 PM

I don't get the cause of action in this. I haven't followed the original CL story, but from what this looks like, the guy who wrote and sold the program for auto posting on CL is getting threatened by CL with lawsuits if he doesn't disclose his clients.

The part I don't get is where is the illegal part? posting ads on CL isn't illegal. Was it some obscure thing in the CL TOS that he broke? I would just love to know.

**Laser** · #40 (**permalink**) 03-16-2009, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inforequester

They don't have the man power to do this or the money !!! That's like saying that every single Torrent site is going to get shut down and all the people who downloaded from the torrent site will soon be in a court of law.

Virtually impossible !!!

The Pirate Bay is in court right now defending themselves.

**wmitchell003** · #41 (**permalink**) 03-16-2009, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laser

The Pirate Bay is in court right now defending themselves.

yeah but the prosecution of every pirate bay user doesn't seem very practical to say the least.

lurnme · #42 (**permalink**) 03-22-2009, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inforequester

They don't have the man power to do this or the money !!! That's like saying that every single Torrent site is going to get shut down and all the people who downloaded from the torrent site will soon be in a court of law.

Virtually impossible !!!

I don't pay much attention to CL but back in 2004 I know a CL partner sold out to ebay so I think you are mistaken that it's impossible for then to get backup.

I don't think they will use Ebay unless forced to because they didn't like the idea that one of the share owners sold his to them but nothing is impossible.

Maybe things have changed since then but I haven't heard about it. That was before they went ahead and made their own site kiji or whatever it is.

ezcoin · #43 (**permalink**) 03-22-2009, 03:13 PM

First of all CL won't go after the little guy because there is no money in it. Successful corporations didn't get where they are by wasting time with people who have no money. Attorney fees will eat you up.

They really just wanted to put a dent into the autoposters because it got way out of control. They succeeded with that and anything else is just a scare tactic to keep a few more from thinking twice about spamming CL with multiple ads. Like anything else on the Internet it's a numbers game and it will keep a certain amount of people away.

I personally like to see threads like this saying they are going after the little guy because some actually believe it. It keeps the competition down. I don't have to post hundreds of ads a day anymore. In fact I can now make as much with 20 ads a day with what once took a few hundred of ads a day. A lot of success in anything is how you react to changes. I look to see how I can benefit from it because that is where the money is made.

**Realign02** · #44 (**permalink**) 03-22-2009, 03:26 PM

It really amazes me how much craiglist has turned into little bitch crybabies. They can play their little games all they want, but like others have said they won't go after the posters. It really will make them look bad in the eyes of all the other advertisers.

People will start go to their separate ways to BP and Kijiji. I wouldn't worry too much about getting in trouble if you're an advertiser.

-E

Emperor Norton I · #45 (**permalink**) 03-25-2009, 08:54 AM

While there are probably a lot of people who are afraid that CL will go after them for using the auto-poster, that's probably only part of CL's intent here (scare people away from using such software).

What they're really trying to do is to get information about how the tool is used. CL knows, you know, I know what it's used for, but they'd have to show a court that it's not just an easy way to post on CL -- it's a tool used to spam, to break CL's terms of service. When they extract a large settlement from the maker of the tool (which will likely never be recovered), they make headlines, and suddenly people don't want to create these kinds of programs anymore (lest they risk their wages being garnished for the rest of their working lives).

So, they'll get the list of customers, take a sample of those customers, and get information from them about how the tool is used. Then they'll use those statistics to demonstrate the tool's actual usage.

Going after the individual posters/customers would be an absolute waste of time and money. Far cheaper to go after the people supplying the tools to those posters.