2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

 
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Dear members, i started my journey here. But, 2checkout is almost putting an end to ...
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    Angry 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    Dear members,

    i started my journey here. But, 2checkout is almost putting an end to it by forcing me to pay them over $35,000 as negative balance.

    Here is my plight,

    i was selling accessories from china to my customers, was using 2 checkout for payments for nearly 6 months to do so.
    And, business was good.

    I thought of expanding product selection and when i did keyword research and some market research, i found china phones were selling well too.
    So, i tried to hand pick the best possible and sell it to my customers. Got to agree, was a bad idea! As the phones were not that great despite hand picking the best possible out there.

    Upon selling like 10 or so phones (just starting off), i got a rude shock when 2checkout closed my account suddenly. Unlike PayPal, (paypal gives you a warning first.) 2checkout just closed my account and waiting for me to call them without even sending a email to me. I called and got my account restored and also i told them i won't sell phones using them. I kept to my words and no phones were sold. Things were fine for 3 days.
    And, then they closed out my account again. this time, i only saw a white screen when i logged in. And, it read that my account was closed.

    I tried emailing and calling but they refused and avoided me like trash and at this point of time, they held nearly $25,000 in the account and they promised to release it 90 days later. Happens with PayPal too, so i was cool and thought i will just struggle for 90days and see my $25k again 90days but NO. There were suddenly alot of chargebacks and every chargeback despite challenging, they charge $15 for admin fee to challenge, i lost the chargebacks and now the chargeback fees were increased to $50/chargeback. And sometimes, my orders were only like a couple of dollars. (i sell accessories so value isn't that great). So, my money was slowing dissolving and the worst part was i could not have access to my account dashboard, as such, i could not see anything which is going on. i didn't know how much i was left with, who was refunded, and who are disputing i only received emails and 2checkout expects me to make do with it.

    90 days passed and i waited for 2checkout to email me. They didn't. Gave them around 5 more business days, no email again. So, i emailed and asked how much money is left and when will they be sending the money back, again there was no reply for 3 days - 3 mails. And finally to my dismay, the risk co-ordinator mailed me and said they will be forfeit the money. close to $13K usd now. yes, they refunded $12K to my customers. And, to top it, they said that $410,000 fine is pending on us and that this large sum of money has been taken from 2checkout and that 2checkout is disputing with their service provider to reduce or eliminate the fine. And, there was no proper invoice sent to me. No signed documents. Only a crap quality A4 scanned kind of document which looked like an amateur bill but totaling to a whooping amount of $410,000 for various violations. I only re-sold phones which top 1000 alexa sites were selling. Even if i had used E--Bay or PayPal, the punishment would not have been so great.

    And today another person mailed me and said that we owe them $37K now. (negative balance) of course this negative balance plus the available fund $13K amounts to $50K, so, i assume the so called fine was $50K for doing a mistake once and taking all my efforts to stop selling the phones and closing the website down.

    Do you people think, 2co is scamming or ripping me off? I am not a big time seller and $50K to anyone is alot of money and they just want to get it from me without any documents and the so called fine invoice was issued to them 1 month after our account was closed. Can it be a false document? What should i do right now? I am totally lost. It is really unfair for them to push all the charges to me. I am aware that they have plenty of sellers who are selling f.a.k.e.s really f.a.k.e.s! nintendo ds and etc. and, so, they could have met with a heavy fee and now they are covering their losses by segregating the losses to sellers like me?

    and these fines are coming from a payment service provider who accepts cards for 2co and normally the parties which can issue fines are mastercard, visa, but i don't see any documents from them.

    Can all this be a planned ripoff? no proper documents. 410,000 fine and then reduced to 50,000 after my mail and now i am forced to pay it up if not there will be collection agency. i live in singapore, not sure how collection agency work here. but, heck! i didn't do anything wrong to be in such deep shit. my mistake was the phones and i quickly corrected it once told and paid the price with account closed and money held but now another $37k burden is chasing me. this is unfair. do any of you have any advice for me?

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    Sue them. Tell them you will sue them if they don't send you all the documents related to the bills and damage you provided.
    No way the payment processor/account can be so unprofessional.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Roth View Post
    Sue them. Tell them you will sue them if they don't send you all the documents related to the bills and damage you provided.
    No way the payment processor/account can be so unprofessional.
    Thank you, tim. I am not so sure about sue-ing them.
    even though i need the $13K usd badly, at this moment, i would rather leave with no money at all instead of getting a $37k fine.

    the problem is they can pluck out an invoice/document from the PSP (payment service provider) just like that.
    Imagine, 2checkout could be/should be their biggest customer and this PSP (payment service provider) is based in Cyprus so, a fake invoice being generated is not a big deal, if my customer need a marked up invoice to profit more, of course i will do it. same could apply here.

    i am just worried that things could get uglier, a 410,000 fine could become 50,000 in 2 days and it may again shoot up to 410,000. because, all the while, i was not at all informed such a huge fine was going on against me (if it was true) it is nearly half a million. And they could not even bother to mail me. but, when i emailed 3 days - 3 times, they mail and speak crap.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    you can't sue someone if you were doing something illegal .. ie selling fakes

    honestly I would go speak to an attorney and not take advice on a BHW forum - simply because it's 50k now but if you start incurring legal fees on top of it the amount will grow quickly -- so best find out your options now before you go too far down that road.

    this is probably a reason why most people should be operating as a company - so that if the crap hits the fan - you just bankrupt the company then close the company .... anyway find out the facts asap you will sleep better at night.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    I think closing deals with them, you will never see a penny and they won't bother you about the "fine".

    I will really talk to a lawyer about the situation. Are they affordable where you live? Find a good one and let me know what does he thinks. For at max. a couple of hunderds, you will sleep fine at night and maybe you also become richer.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    I'm really sorry that this happened to you.. I know how it feels to have your money frozen (happened to my Paypal account once). But then losing it all and even more to chargebacks is just outrageous!

    I don't use 2checkout myself, but from what I've heard it's a reliable service. Never the less, someone else could be abusing your situation. Anyway I think your best approach is to get some advice of a lawyer and try to get all the proper documentation from 2checkout, like where did all your money go and who did the chargebacks. Make sure they proof to you that you own them that amount.

    I personally would never pay anything to them. If they send a collection agency I would make sure that there is nothing to collect (move any money or anything of value you own to a reliable family member). Good luck!

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    Sounds like they got nailed by Mastercard. Are you in the states? If so, I would at least speak with a business lawyer. If not, then I would forget it. Yeah it sucks but your accounts would have been frozen under Paypal as well. My guess is something you sold as genuine was reported as a fake. Selling anything from China is risky because the bastards steal and duplicate anything that isn't nailed down.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    Hi,sorry this happen to you.Did you save any invoices from any transactions?If you dont have any filesfor any transactions it is going to be hard to figure out what money went back to each customer.Email them and ask them for a full transaction copy of all transactions for the last 90 days.Second,Best thing you can do is consult with a lawyer.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Comic View Post
    Sounds like they got nailed by Mastercard. Are you in the states? If so, I would at least speak with a business lawyer. If not, then I would forget it. Yeah it sucks but your accounts would have been frozen under Paypal as well. My guess is something you sold as genuine was reported as a fake. Selling anything from China is risky because the bastards steal and duplicate anything that isn't nailed down.
    i am not in the states, i am in singapore. so, they won't be able to get collection agency after me?
    also, is forming a pte ltd company now too late?

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Danny1111 View Post
    you can't sue someone if you were doing something illegal .. ie selling fakes

    honestly I would go speak to an attorney and not take advice on a BHW forum - simply because it's 50k now but if you start incurring legal fees on top of it the amount will grow quickly -- so best find out your options now before you go too far down that road.

    this is probably a reason why most people should be operating as a company - so that if the crap hits the fan - you just bankrupt the company then close the company .... anyway find out the facts asap you will sleep better at night.
    That's absolutely FALSE. You can sue anyone for any reason.
    Where does he mentioned he was selling fakes phones ? I read Chinese only, maybe not in norm?!

    The point is:
    Why is that a problem of the payment processor? They have to prove you WHY is their problem and they didn't. Speak with a lawyer as me and Danny said previously.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Roth View Post
    That's absolutely FALSE. You can sue anyone for any reason.
    Where does he mentioned he was selling fakes phones ? I read Chinese only, maybe not in norm?!

    The point is:
    Why is that a problem of the payment processor? They have to prove you WHY is their problem and they didn't. Speak with a lawyer as me and Danny said previously.
    tim, i was selling china phones. and they could have thought it is fake. but like i mentioned i only resold phones which are being sold in top 1000 alexa ecommerce sites. but, i face more shit than them.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    so let me get this straight - your legal opinion is a "drug dealer" who gets ripped off by a client or a "supplier" can then go to court and sue them to get an unpaid debt (LOL) ... he was selling fake stuff from China - if they have one piece of evidence of this -- then he is in for a world of "pain"

    seriously go see a lawyer and find out what applies to you and what doesn't.

    next time set up a company and have everything in the companies name - better yet don't sell China knockoffs and you won't have this trouble....... one of the problems you are going to have is if your "debt" goes unpaid - no other companies will provide you CC services anyway.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    Another example .. Bernie Madoff can't go and sue Chase Bank because they should have known he was running a Ponzi scheme and he should only have gotten 10 years instead of "Life" .... if your committing "fraud" "criminal act" you can't sue someone over that same act.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Danny1111 View Post
    Another example .. Bernie Madoff can't go and sue Chase Bank
    I think you may have misunderstood what one can and can not do in a civil court. Madoff can sue Chase Bank, or Obama, or whoever he wants to. All one does is pay the fee and hand in the papers.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Danny1111 View Post
    Another example .. Bernie Madoff can't go and sue Chase Bank because they should have known he was running a Ponzi scheme and he should only have gotten 10 years instead of "Life" .... if your committing "fraud" "criminal act" you can't sue someone over that same act.
    Totally irrelevant. He can sue if he wants to.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    well I'm talking about winning -- and you can be sued for filing frivolous lawsuit - even though it maybe hard to win ... so yeah go and file 20 lawsuits and see what your bank account looks like.... cheers.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Danny1111 View Post
    well I'm talking about winning
    Are you a lawyer or a judge by any chance and you 've already determined the result?

    People can sue other people. Simple as that. Following your advice is like getting a beating and then saying "oh, it 's cool, I should just shut up - I can't do anything anyway"

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    back to the thread issue -- and that is "damages" can they prove "damages" and come after you or not -- and can it be enforced in Singapore .... go speak to a lawyer -- don't rely on what you read here.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    OP. I take it that the phones you have sold are regular China-phones, such as ZTE and Huawei and similar, and not iPhones/Samsung. And that the phones you have sold are not fakes.

    You'd be a fool for taking legal advice from a forum... however, since you are here already, here is some legal advice :

    1. I assume you have made some money, throwing in another 1000 dollars for some lawyer time could perhaps make good sense.

    2. I also guess that part of 2checkout's terms and conditions state that they can take all your money when they feel like it.

    3. The above does not mean that you cannot put forth a lawsuit. 2checkout seem to have offices in Hong Kong as well as in the USA. It could be cheaper to enter a lawsuit in HK than in the USA. And it would surely increase the cost for 2checkout to defend in a country where they don't have their legal team.

    Just my 2 cents worth.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    "Are you a lawyer or a judge by any chance and you 've already determined the result?

    People can sue other people. Simple as that. Following your advice is like getting a beating and then saying "oh, it 's cool, I should just shut up - I can't do anything anyway"

    In that case you can sue because you have "damages" assuming you went to a hospital and had treatment

    I honestly don't think that you really have much of a clue when it comes to the law ... and I have alot more Legal experience than most but I am not a lawyer --- which is why my first response/instinct was to tell him consult with a professional because I am sure this is causing him alot of grief and better to know what your looking at ASAP - than wait for someone to start proceedings against you.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    Suing is out of option for you, not because whether you can or cannot legally. It's because you'll just end up paying attorney fee and in case if they do any counter suing & could prove it, you'll end up losing money big time. The best thing to do is

    1. Get all the transaction related documents when your account was blocked/closed.
    2. Get the details of chargebacks from customers & reasons for it. Verify it.
    3.Read the TOS of 2checkout thoroughly to see if there are any points mentioned that they can charge their customers(you) in case of payment processor fined/penalty them.
    4. Research more about step 3(your exact scenario) from internet/attorney.
    5. Verify if those documents provided to you are authentic.

    Once you get all these details, you will be in a position to know what needs to be done next.



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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    Grazy is where I think this lays ... you say you had $35k ... they say with all the charges/settlement you are now -$50k ----> is it clear your responsible for this in their TOS -- and can they prove "damages" or not ... if you sue them and they have one ounce of proof then your in for a world of pain ..... hopefully it turns out they can't pursue you for the money anyway .. but thats what professional advice will tell you.

    I'm out on this matter - can't say anything else.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    I used to work for 2CO in Columbus from 06-08. I would never use 2CO for my payments for multiple reasons. One, way too high of fees. Holding payments and they earn interest on it. (slick) Another, stupid verifications process where they call your customers and confuse them and almost talk them into considering a refund.

    Also, watch what you post here. There are 2CO lurkers. One guy has 2CO in his signature so he obviously works there.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    Oh goody, I like the popcorn in this thread.

    My professional advise as a forum whore is to seek a lawyer specialized in this sort of thing. No way you will get legit advise here since the case is a bit more complicated than a simple yes or no by the looks of it.
    This is not about nickles and dimes, it may or may not be international and you may or may not require Vaseline.

    Also, even if you lose, you still have the right to sue. Taking people to court has shown to work in some cases even if there really wasn't a case to be won.

    Other than that....


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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    my personal thought to the OP,
    the that company knows you are not going to sue them because of the fake stuff, and that's why they are trying to take from you all they can, it happened to me in a complete different type of business but the moral was the same,
    you could take a risk and sue them but as you mentioned - if they are in Cyprus, they can just print out an invoice for any amount they like, and your attorneys, lawyers will be helpless.
    Just take what you can, and stay away from them.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    Quote Originally Posted by idmercu View Post
    I used to work for 2CO in Columbus from 06-08. I would never use 2CO for my payments for multiple reasons. One, way too high of fees. Holding payments and they earn interest on it. (slick) Another, stupid verifications process where they call your customers and confuse them and almost talk them into considering a refund.

    Also, watch what you post here. There are 2CO lurkers. One guy has 2CO in his signature so he obviously works there.
    Having 2CO in a signature doesn't mean they work for 2CO. That is just a stupid statement.

    OP, I guess keep insisting. Don't let this pass away. Suing them is an option but you're probably going to end up with more money to be paid (for attorneys, etc I guess).

    On the other hand, I've been completely happy as a 2CO customer but posts like these make me think twice about taking payments with them in the future..

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    Seems like you were selling shitty items. How many chargebacks did u have?

    If i were you i would let it go and start again.... Now you know what you did wrong...
    Did u sell via your own ecomerce site?

    peace

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    You are talking about 35K here. Go and seek legal council. Bring whatever facts you have and be 100% upfront with your lawyer. Tell them exactly what you were doing and tell them if you felt you were breaking any rules. Before you start taking any bullish advise to sue, your lawyer will be able to tell you what is most likely to happen and if you have a chance. At the least the lawyer should let 2CO know that you are represented and you wont be going away without some satisfaction, Initial enquiries wont cost a lot of money and going to court is the very last thing you would do after seeking fair recompence. Theres some decent advice in this thread but from one extreme to the other...get a lawyer.

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    Default

    It doesn't cost anything to seek legal advice. Nothing. I would suggest you do that. Thanks

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    2CO needs to be shitlisted like paypal they are both scamming their users with broad TOS. Is there any payment processor that is not running the TOS scam?
    This member has been permanently banned from BHW.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    Quote Originally Posted by jox51 View Post
    It doesn't cost anything to seek legal advice. Nothing. I would suggest you do that. Thanks
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^ This. Not sure if you need to sue but you obviously need legal advice in a big way. Counterfeit doesn't even enter the picture. They were merely Chinese imports.

  44. #32
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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    I suppose the best solution here is to get a legal advice.
    This member has been permanently banned from BHW.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    Quote Originally Posted by paypalvba View Post
    Couldnt you just pay the fine and get on with it....?whats the big deal.
    If you don't have $35k lying around, like most people won't, it isn't that simple to "pay the fine".
    It would be stupid if you would have to loan the money just to pay of a fine.

    I recently got a cleam for €10k and I just hired a lawyer, it went to court and they lost. They even had to pay me €1250 for inconveniences. The lawyer cost me about €700. Ofcourse, I know before that they where full of shit and had no proof of their claims, so I felt pretty secure I was going to win it.

    But to the OP: Go to a lawyer and find advice. In my country the first visit to a lawyer (for advice) is free. Ofcourse they will advice you in a way that includes them, but in the end it will cost you a few 100 bucks and you will have certainties about what your options are and if it would be better to ignore it, pay it, or go to court.
    Last edited by saxgod; 10-23-2012 at 10:04 PM.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    ..........
    Last edited by idmercu; 10-23-2012 at 11:58 PM.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    idmercu, xenix9 does not work for 2checkout. I don't know the guy but this much I can tell you without knowing him.

    I see you now edited your post though.

    Let me put your post up again.

    And your pointless comment wasn't stupid????

    This particular BHW member, their signature reads: '2CO is Awesome!'
    They work there, trust me. And that's not just a part of their signature.....it's their entire signature. This thread is being watched. My opinion.
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  48. #36
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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    Since not a single one of the people on this forum knows anything about how you managed the account, what threshold was broken and your 2CO communication was I think the only advice you need is one from a lawyer who is hired to review your situation. To help your lawyer out or prove you may need one you may want to ask these questions from 2CO:

    1. We need a clear statement from the processor, sponsoring bank, or card association (other than 2CheckOut.com) stating which violations caused the account to be closed.

    2. We need an itemized list of chargebacks and violations including reason, amount, date, and customer since we no longer have access to the information you claim.

    3. We would like to be put in contact with the payment service provider, not 2CheckOut.com, who sponsors and/or works with 2CheckOut.com.

    4. If we are not provided with these answers in 5 business days we will assume this is clear and deliberate fraud and have our hired law firm contact 2CheckOut.com demanding, in full, the balance of our account at the time it was closed. If this fails to reason with your group we will be forced to have our law firm file a legal claim against 2CheckOut.com and expedite the legal process.

    Now, I am not telling you what to do or advice on what happened - I don't know and stuff happens all the time in the payment industry - but I would start by asking some questions that force them to prove it. Don't just demand it back, it seems you got a BRAM Violation (MasterCard) and 2CheckOut.com is not telling you straight. The payment industry can be very hard to navigate so they are prepped to deal with guys like you too, you need to pursue it smart
    Last edited by ClThis; 10-24-2012 at 12:18 AM.

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  50. #37
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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    These are some serious accusations. Hopefully you can resolve it to a point where neither side owes money, even though it seems as if you were screwed over tremendously.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Amsterdammer View Post
    idmercu, xenix9 does not work for 2checkout. I don't know the guy but this much I can tell you without knowing him.

    I see you now edited your post though.

    Let me put your post up again.
    Funny How you knew exactly who I was referring to without me providing the handle dont you think? You know how to push the buttons on the site, congratulations! You're lame. Save your energy for something useful.

    And why would anyone, no matter how satisfied of a customer, would you have as the only thing in your signature '2CO is awesome'? Makes no sense. Unless that person had a VERY vested interest in 2CO. Just using my brain. Again,, OP, watch what you are posting. Especially any plans of action you may be considering.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    Quote Originally Posted by idmercu View Post
    Funny How you knew exactly who I was referring to without me providing the handle dont you think? You know how to push the buttons on the site, congratulations! You're lame. Save your energy for something useful.

    And why would anyone, no matter how satisfied of a customer, would you have as the only thing in your signature '2CO is awesome'? Makes no sense. Unless that person had a VERY vested interest in 2CO. Just using my brain. Again,, OP, watch what you are posting. Especially any plans of action you may be considering.
    Ever heard of google? A simple search on there popped up the name.

    Also, if paypal gives problems, and it does, people could be very happy with 2co. There are plenty of threads where it is advised to use them over paypal to collect. Less of a TOS problem there.
    The current thread is the first bad thing I saw about 2co.

    Also, I am a lot of nasty things but lame is not one of them. This is a matter of opinion of course, you are entitled to yours.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    duplicate
    Last edited by idmercu; 10-24-2012 at 03:00 AM.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    Interesting, I've generally heard pretty good things about 2co and actually found that they had very good customer support on the phone. But I guess everyone can have different experiences.

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    2CO Gone Wild. WTF?

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    If 2CO and Paypal are set up to scam people out of money,what would be a good payment processor to use?
    This member has been permanently banned from BHW.

  57. #44
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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    So how the story is sorting out?

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    Default Re: 2checkout screwing me over $35,000 USD, advice needed

    You don't know what OP got himself into.. It might be far worse than just a couple of shitty phones or so.
    But I strongly advise op to seek legal advice. If he can't find a lawyer familiar with payment processors etc. he should search for online legal advice services, these can sometimes offer the best advice.

    Before you do anything they want you to do, you have the right to request official documents, transcripts, statements, fines etc. to be delivered directly to your home address. And those also need to be official copies, supported with official prints.

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