I often get this question, how do you determine whether a niche is worth entering. So I'll outline what I do to determine that.

The preliminary step is keyword research. There's books and books on that, I won't go into it. I use keyword spy, google cash detective, and similar tools that automate the process.

The part thats interesting for this discussion is not finding the keywords but figuring out how competitive they are. Single word keywords are a bit harder to size up than multi-word keywords with my method, so I'll cover single word keywords another time, because it requires some enhancements to the basic method.

So lets say you want to know how competitive 'build backlinks' is.

Phase 1: competition

Step 1: enter build backlinks into google and see there are 1.8m matches.
Step 2: enter "build backlinks" and see there are 180K matches.
Step 3: enter intitle:"build backlinks" and see there are 2140 matches.
Step 4: enter inurl:"build backlinks" see 2090 matches.
Step 5: enter allinurl:"build backlinks" see 2090 matches.

I abandon a keyword if it has >4K intitle: and/or >4K inurl: matches as that indicates many pages are optimized for this 2 word keyword. The longer the keyword, the lower my cut-off goes.

Phase 2: competition strength

For each of the top five (sometimes ten) results on the result page of the broad match search, determine how many backlinks each has, and eyeball whether they're actually optimized for this keyword. If the keyword is not dominant in their backlinks then they are ranking mainly due to on-page SEO, and they're a lot weaker irrespective of the number of backlinks.

I use http://backlinkwatch.com to examine the backlinks, some other people recommend Yahoo Site Explorer. It's a matter of taste, both have their plusses and minuses. I use Firefox SEO to deterimen page PR.

For this keyword, I find:

http://www.webconfs.com/how-to-build...article-16.php 118 links, 20% with anchortext 'how to build backlinks'

http://www.sitepronews.com/archives/2008/jul/2.html 10 links, 20% with same anchortext

http://www.seochat.com/c/a/Link-Trad...Your-Web-Site/ 8 links, none with *any* anchor text

http://www.work-at-home-jobs-iowa.co...-to-build.html 5 links, no anchor text

OK we've seen enough to determine that this niche is probably possible to dominate with a few well written pages and >100 links with appropriate anchortext. The amount of effort required is (a) getting a good domain, (b) writing a few (>5, ideally 10) pages with good content about backlink building (c) building backlinks to them with >40-50% anchortext containing the keyword 'build backlinks'.

I guess noone needs help with this topic, I wasted my time posting about it here

Thanks for this info !

This is exactly the kind of SPECIFIC information that many of us are interested in. If you cannot size up a niche after reading this, you probably should apply at Burger King

Originally Posted by FleshJoe

I guess noone needs help with this topic, I wasted my time posting about it here

Hmmm I wouldn't say that FJ ... the ones who need it are probably looking in the wrong sub-forum .

Thanks for the tip re: backlinkwatch.

XRay and everyone else, thanks

I was having a discussion with someone over PM about whether inurl: is important to measure competition or whether intitle: is more important. After some more digging, I believe intitle: has a much larger impact on ranking than inurl:, so (a) you don't really need a domain name loaded with keywords, and (b) you can rank well just with titles containing your keywords. Of course you still need the whole package, i.e. on-page SEO as well as links back to your site with the right anchor text.

Importantly, any link is a good link. Links from sites that are not in the same niche as yours work just fine, as long as the links have good keyword-loaded anchor text. Links that are nofollow contribute just as much to ranking for the anchor-text keyword as ******** links. That's because a low PR page with good backlinks can outrank a high PR page with bad backlinks for the same keyword.

Read the above paragraph a couple times. The lesson: all links are good links, and do continue to make links on nofollow sites. They help, and PR is not the end-all be-all.

This was exactly what I was looking for and your time was not wasted.

So I went ahead and searched for more info on this and read this

Code:

http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?threadid=3131

. There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding intitle and inurl

Maybe you should shed some light on this.

Regardless of any confusion over the minor details, this information for sizing up a niche is top class. Thank-you. I am mystified as to why there have not been more responses.

However, I would like to know more about automating the initial keyword research (keyword spy, google cash detective). Fleshjoe, can you provide any more details on these tools?

Originally Posted by FleshJoe

XRay and everyone else, thanks

I was having a discussion with someone over PM about whether inurl: is important to measure competition or whether intitle: is more important. After some more digging, I believe intitle: has a much larger impact on ranking than inurl:, so (a) you don't really need a domain name loaded with keywords, and (b) you can rank well just with titles containing your keywords. Of course you still need the whole package, i.e. on-page SEO as well as links back to your site with the right anchor text.

Importantly, any link is a good link. Links from sites that are not in the same niche as yours work just fine, as long as the links have good keyword-loaded anchor text. Links that are nofollow contribute just as much to ranking for the anchor-text keyword as ******** links. That's because a low PR page with good backlinks can outrank a high PR page with bad backlinks for the same keyword.

Read the above paragraph a couple times. The lesson: all links are good links, and do continue to make links on nofollow sites. They help, and PR is not the end-all be-all.

Thanks for making these points, FleshJoe.

I was thinking about the inurl vs. intitle issue a few days ago while doing niche research. I saw that the domain didn't matter as much for ranking purposes as having the keyword intitle and in the first few lines of the article, post, etc.

Originally Posted by FleshJoe

I guess noone needs help with this topic, I wasted my time posting about it here

Definitely not, some of those tips will help me in building my niche empire.

Thanks man!

Originally Posted by XRay

Thanks for making these points, FleshJoe.

I was thinking about the inurl vs. intitle issue a few days ago while doing niche research. I saw that the domain didn't matter as much for ranking purposes as having the keyword intitle and in the first few lines of the article, post, etc.

I'd rank the factors as follows:

inanchor: > intitle: > inurl: > "in-domain" > "in-description" > "in-h1" > "on-page"

I put "in-domain", "in-description", "in-h1" and "on-page" in quotes because there are no operators for these self-explanatory (hopefully) distinctions.

Off-site (i.e. back links with relevant anchor text) SEO is way more important for ranking than on-site, because of the fact that on-site is easier to control and therefore "game". If you have back links with anchor text that is a good match for the subject of your page, Google infers that other sites also think that your page is relevant for that subject, so Google thinks it's relevant for that subject and ranks it high. This used to work before user generated content became common, but no more.

I expect Google to improve their formulas so it'll become harder to game their off-site evaluation. It's a horse race, sometimes the SEOs lead, sometimes Google. Right now the SEOs lead, but it will swing back and forth.

FleshJoe I don't know if it worked, but I tried to give you rep for this thread. You've definitely added to my knowledge base and I appreciate it big time.

Question for you re: anchor text links. Is it better for SEO to vary your links between anchor text and natural links? Wouldn't it appear more "natural" to the search engines if I threw in some "http://mysite.com/topic page" links in with my anchor text links?

@ Micallef: My paid tool is from Howie Schwartz's "lab" (wierdest thing, I typed in the name, but it wouldn't show), but I also use Google's external keyword tool and Wordtracker's free keyword tool. No matter what tool(s) you use, you still have to analyze, drill down, analyze, drill down.

This has the makings of one of BHWs top threads - thanks Fleshjoe for initiating it.

Your post was clear, concise and loaded with instantly usable information.

The so-called 'gurus' could learn a thing or two from you on this (they'd probably make your post into a 10 DVD product - LOL!!)!

I like Micallef's post about learning how to apply some of the tools to the process to help automate/speed things up. Fleshjoe or anyone care to offer some guidance?

Cheers

Thanks for the info this will be of great use to me.

Originally Posted by dsizzle

Thanks for this info !

This is exactly the kind of SPECIFIC information that many of us are interested in. If you cannot size up a niche after reading this, you probably should apply at Burger King

Lol. I would not mind working at burger king. I mean I love food and anywhere I can pinch free food is on my menu. Seriously though, this is a very clear and concise post and should satisfy anyone wanting to crack a niche. There are more automated ways of doing this though.

Thanks, I appreciate you making this so easy to follow and understand. I know I've seen similar info elsewhere but you broke it down into simple steps and gave us numbers we can use to judge the worthiness of a niche. I think the "I abandon a keyword if it has >4K intitle: and/or >4K inurl: matches" will be useful to a lot of people who didn't have a concrete way to judge the competiton.

I tested it right away on a niche I had in mind and found only 128 competitors with "intitle:" and "inurl:" and just a couple authority sites in the top ten for that search. Now I feel great because using your info and what I know already I'm confident I can dominate that phase.

Originally Posted by FleshJoe

XRay and everyone else, thanks
Importantly, any link is a good link. Links from sites that are not in the same niche as yours work just fine, as long as the links have good keyword-loaded anchor text. Links that are nofollow contribute just as much to ranking for the anchor-text keyword as ******** links. That's because a low PR page with good backlinks can outrank a high PR page with bad backlinks for the same keyword.

Read the above paragraph a couple times. The lesson: all links are good links, and do continue to make links on nofollow sites. They help, and PR is not the end-all be-all.

I keep reading this over and over and I appreciate that you added in this bit.

Some people waste so much time worrying about nofollow and page rank. Last time I was at DP it's like all people were talking about. Not only does it probably not matter but I see traffic from nofollow links all the time.

Good!

(Can one moderator delete this? i posted another in down, sorry =/ )

This is a great post, more i have more one question...

Can u say off keyword spy, google cash detective and firefox seo?

Is possible give links for download?

thanks!

Hey Fleshjoe-

Awesome post, you've cleared something up for me that I've been trying to figure out for ages!

One question...

"Links that are nofollow contribute just as much to ranking for the anchor-text keyword as ******** links."

Did I read that right? Inbound Nofollow links to my site still help me as long as they are an anchor I'm going after?

I wrote that wrong. Thanks for catching it. What I meant to say is that nofollow links contribute just as much RELEVANCE for the anchor text keyword as ******** links. And in the end google ranks not only by PR, so the link is still very significant for ranking, but maybe not as important as a link that passes PR. The bottom line is you shouldn't care too much whether a link is ******** or not, just create a link with the anchor text you want -- every link helps, and you can't have too many

Awesome share, i love it when people actually put time and effort into an idea they have and then are kind enough to share it. Ill probably end up using a variation of this sometime. Now you got my brain working

Originally Posted by x4ng3l

This is a great post, more i have more one question...

Can u say off keyword spy, google cash detective and firefox seo?

Is possible give links for download?

thanks!

Please don't hijack this thread. Quick answer: none of these products is downloadable, as far as I know.

If this thread is interesting to you, you should also find the following thread a good read:

http://www.blackhatworld.com/blackha...rity-site.html

Cool Stuff, For Sure People Need That Info, There Is Some Complete Noobs On Here, Some Don't Even Know Why They Signed Up

FleshJoe, I am interested to know more about this assertion.

What I meant to say is that nofollow links contribute just as much RELEVANCE for the anchor text keyword as ******** links. And in the end google ranks not only by PR, so the link is still very significant for ranking, but maybe not as important as a link that passes PR.

Now, you may indeed be right about this.

However, what I have been searching for over the last few weeks is evidence for google's checking for backlink relevancy when it is calculating your serp placement. I want to be sure about this issue, because I think that searching for relevant high PR ********s takes 5x as long as getting links from non-relevant sites.

Let's say I have a Hotel Review site. All sites in this exercise have an equal number of outbound links. All links carry keyword targetted anchor text.

I get a PR5 ******** backlink from a baseball site. Google's algorithm awards me a 0.15 increase in serp position for this (an increase of 1.0 would mean I move up one position) (and yes, I know it doesnt actually work like this)

Then, I get a PR5 nofollow backlink from another hotel related site. Would I get less, the same, or more advantage from this backlink? Importantly, what is the evidence.

The backlink relevancy theory sounds like it makes sense, and I apopreciate that it may well be correct.

I am just looking for evidence, because as I mentioned above, a lot of work and effort is at stake. I personally have had sites rank with no relevant backlinks.

Of course, that does not mean that they would not have ranked even better with relevant backlinks .

OK, very simple:

******** links contribute to the target page's Page Rank.
Nofollow links do not contribute.

******** links contribute to the target page's relevance for the term in the anchor text.
Nofollow links also contribute.

Links on pages that are also relevant to the target page contribute to the relevance of the target page.
Links on pages that are not relevant to the target page contribute perhaps less to the relevance of the target page, but it's hard to prove either way.

Page rank is one contributing factor to ranking well for ANY term. However, in my experience, anchor text relevance is much more crucial for ranking. You can pretty much control what terms a page will rank well for, by creating more links than your competition with anchor text that contains those terms. I haven't seen evidence either way whether ******** contributes more than nofollow, but as we agree evidence is hard to come by, and an experiment would have to be of such scale as to be too large for a single person to conduct.

To find ******** links I have SEO for FF installed, I turn it on before visiting a page where I want to drop a link and look at the color of the links. Bright red == nofollow.

I find myself ignoring (as link drop targets) any sites that have domain PR of less than 6 for '.com' and '.net', less than 4 for '.edu' and '.gov', and I skip anything with a domain PR of 8 or less if it has nofollow links. The reason is simple: there are so many great places to drop your links that it's not productive to fight for nofollow links. Some people will drop links on drop targets whether or not they are nofollow, and some other people dispense with the PR checking altogether. All three approaches are 'right': in the end a link is a link is a link is a link. And you cannot ever have too many links

Top Stuff, I Never Actually Considered Doing That, I Will Have To Put This Into Practice, Thnx And Cool Info!!!!!!

You mentined inurl and intitle limits for 2 word keywords, but what about 3 or 4? Occasionally I get keywords that are that long. What's been your cuttoff with keywords like those?

This is a fantastic thread, applying thank you . . . now.

-S

I don't really have enough insight and experience to answer the question about cut-offs for 3 and 4 word key phrases, sorry

Originally Posted by FleshJoe

I don't really have enough insight and experience to answer the question about cut-offs for 3 and 4 word key phrases, sorry

Fair enough, thank you for taking the time to answer!

-S

Hey again FJ, one other quick question . . . You know how backlinkwatch, and yahoo's site explorer sometimes doesn't show you all of the backlinks to a site?

Wouldn't that lead to miscalculations as to how much competition a website is? If so, is there some way to adjust for that.

-S

The real value of the competition is the strength of their links. If they have >10K PR0 links I dont really care that much, what I want to see is their strong links.

Now lets say a page is listed as having 80K backlinks. Since backlinkwatch shows me a 1K sampling of the links, I just look to see how many strong links there are in the 1K that it does show me, and extrapolate from there.

Most pages do not have this problem anyways. Most pages have less than 1K backlinks and you get to see all of them.

I think I understand. I was referring more to situations where the backlink count was under 100. If the actual backlink count is say 100, BLW only sees like 45 of those or something like that (I'm not sure how much). But if I understand what you said correctly, regardless of how many BLW returns, we're more concerned about the strength of the results.

-S

Well a PR6 backlink is like 100 PR4 backlinks (its a power scale).

the cleanest guide i've seen in a while! ..wish i was that organized.

for "Exact Phrase" count, those of you using MNF, its manual says go for less than 10k results.
That seemed a little low to me, and went for anything < 20k ..what do u think?

always giving thanks

Great thread!

You said "The preliminary step is keyword research. There's books and books on that" Actually, I've been looking for books (real ones, not crap 10 page ebooks) on the subject but haven't found any.

Could anyone name a few good books on the subject I could check out? Keyword research is really the most basic aspect of IM, so I want to learn it properly.

Great post thankyou you have cleared up alot of things for me.

What a dick i said post

Actually i did have one more question, I have found a 2 word keywor but i`m not sure if i should go for it nor not. gets 9,900 global a month according to google adwords, but when i use wordtracker it says 44! who to trust?

I could dominate the third, forth position very easily maybe even the second. Is it worth it

btw. i have learnt so much from just snooping around here and am now earning around $300-$400 a month, it was hard work at first and i have made loads of mistakes but i`m not giving up, its TOO addictive

Thanks Flesh and thankyou BHW.

LOL, stuff happens.

The number of searches is immaterial to how hard it is to rank for a keyword. The number of searches only helps you decide whether monetarily it is worth your time to compete in a niche -- whether there'll be enough surfers and conversions.

If you'll send me the keywords via PM I'm volunteering to take a look at the competition and give you my opinion. I strongly advise you not to post any info like that in the open, it's just an invitation for some smart marketer to outdo you.

Originally Posted by mrmidjam

What a dick i said post

Actually i did have one more question, I have found a 2 word keywor but i`m not sure if i should go for it nor not. gets 9,900 global a month according to google adwords, but when i use wordtracker it says 44! who to trust?

I could dominate the third, forth position very easily maybe even the second. Is it worth it

btw. i have learnt so much from just snooping around here and am now earning around $300-$400 a month, it was hard work at first and i have made loads of mistakes but i`m not giving up, its TOO addictive

Thanks Flesh and thankyou BHW.

Thanks m8 PM sent.